We’re back! Hosts Kyle Lawrence and Moish Peltz break down the SEC’s bold Project Crypto speech and what it means for U.S. blockchain leadership, examine the surprising end of the SEC vs. Ripple case, and discuss what’s next now that legal clarity is (sort of) here. The duo also unpacks the latest court decision on NFT trademarks (Yuga Labs v. Ryder Ripps), debates Trump’s push to allow crypto in 401(k)s, and explores the ethical and technical dilemmas behind YouTube’s new AI age detection. Plus, they tackle the headline-making reversal in the OpenSea insider trading saga with Nathaniel Chastain…

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Chapter Markers:

00:00 Welcome to Block & Order

22:30 SEC vs Ripple

26:52 Yuga vs Ryder Ripps

31:42 Crypto to 401ks

36:52 Nathaniel Chastain

41:23 YouTube AI

Project Crypto: https://www.sec.gov/newsroom/speeches-statements/atkins-digital-finance-revolution-073125

Ripple Settlement – Who Really Won?: https://cointelegraph.com/news/sec-ripple-drop-appeals-enforcement-action

Yuga Labs vs Ryder Ripps Decision: https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2025/07/24/yuga-labs-bored-ape-yacht-club-usd9m-win-against-ryder-ripps-overturned-must-better-prove-trademark-infringement

Trump Order Opens Door for Crypto and Private Equity in 401(k) Retirement Plans: https://www.coindesk.com/news-analysis/2025/07/28/trump-eyes-moving-u-s-economy-further-into-crypto-via-mortgages-401-k-s
https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2025/07/29/new-lummis-bill-would-back-effort-to-ensure-crypto-assets-can-justify-u-s-mortgages 

Nathaniel Chastain Freed – Insider Trading Free-For-All?: https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/us-appeals-court-overturns-first-nft-insider-trading-conviction-2025-07-31/

 

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Transcript:

**This transcript has been prepared automatically by AI and may contain inaccuracies**

Kyle Lawrence [00:00:00]:
Project Crypto is here. The SEC and Ripple kiss and make up. And the War of the Worlds is in fact the worst movie ever made. We’re gonna break that down and a whole lot more. Coming up on Block and Order. Welcome to Block and Order, your one stop legal shop for all things digital assets. I’m your host, Kyle Lawrence and with me as always. It’s been a while since we’ve done this and I actually forgot what he looks like, but There he is, Mr.

Kyle Lawrence [00:00:32]:
Moish Peltz.

Moish Peltz [00:00:33]:
Well, good thing I’m wearing my bright red polo and I’ve got my best radio face on to Block and Order.

Kyle Lawrence [00:00:41]:
I mean, you certainly can’t sneak up on anybody wearing that shirt. But I like it. It’s working for you, man. I’m into it. Thank you.

Moish Peltz [00:00:47]:
You know, we always wear different shirts on the show and I gotta say, this is, this is one of my favorites.

Kyle Lawrence [00:00:53]:
It looks like it feels right. I’m just an ordinary T shirt. I feel like a plebeian compared to you. I don’t know if I like this.

Moish Peltz [00:00:59]:
You know, it’s a little, gives a little bit of pop with the collar.

Kyle Lawrence [00:01:02]:
It makes you look like a real, a real person, which is a nice change for what we normally look.

Moish Peltz [00:01:07]:
One does have to try. We’re not all like you.

Kyle Lawrence [00:01:11]:
Well, I don’t know about that. Thank you. I’m not into my haircut in my, in my ever. My ever growing gray is. Yeah.

Moish Peltz [00:01:19]:
See mine sneaking in. That’s all right.

Kyle Lawrence [00:01:21]:
That’s all right. Well, middle age is, is nigh for you, my friend, so just get used to that.

Moish Peltz [00:01:26]:
It’s upon us. Yeah.

Kyle Lawrence [00:01:27]:
Well, Moish, it’s been a while and a lot has gone on in these recent weeks. So why don’t we kick it off with our main topic tonight, Project Crypto.

Moish Peltz [00:01:38]:
Project Crypto. Let’s go.

Kyle Lawrence [00:01:40]:
Let’s go. So a couple weeks ago, the chairman of the SEC, Paul Atkins, delivered a great speech called American Leadership in the Digital Finance Revolution. And we’re going to, we’re going to go through it a little and pick out the things we like and question some of the things that maybe we would like a little bit more detail on.

Kyle Lawrence [00:01:56]:
As is par for the course. Why don’t you kick us off a little bit here?

Moish Peltz [00:02:01]:
Yeah, so we’ll go through it a little bit. And you know, this was given about two weeks ago by, by Chairman Atkins, as you mentioned. And it’s, it’s very interesting because this follows off a report that was issued. There was a presidential working Group report. That was a report written to President Trump about basically following in his proclamation that America should be the crypto capital of the world. Chairman Atkins went through and gave a speech that’s ordered and, you know, kind of goes through, starting with the history of capital markets, from Bud and Wood to the blockchain. So. So I think it’s really cool.

Moish Peltz [00:02:39]:
And I’m putting up on the screen here, and we’ll read. Start some of the speech. And he starts off his speech, really, with calling back to the buttonwood tree. So I’ll read. The winds of innovation have always swept through our capital markets, often at gale force in 1792, they rustled the leaves of a buttonwood tree, beneath which two dozen stockbrokers assembled to establish the forerunner to the New York Stock Exchange. That modest agreement, fewer than 100 words, handwritten on a slip of parchment, set in motion elegant design that would govern the flow of capital for generations.

Kyle Lawrence [00:03:13]:
That’s fantastic.

Moish Peltz [00:03:14]:
I think it’s fantastic. Calling back to the buttonwood tree and then the evolution of the capital market since then, you know, from two dozen stockbrokers to a dynamic, you know, electronic capital market system. And highlighting that the SEC’s role has been to safeguard markets throughout this, you know, evolution of human creativity.

Kyle Lawrence [00:03:38]:
Sure.

Moish Peltz [00:03:38]:
That’s the context.

Kyle Lawrence [00:03:39]:
I like. I like the quote. And I. And I, as a student of history and fan of history, one of the things that we often lose sight of when new policy comes out or new initiatives come out is we kind of look at them in a vacuum. Are they good or are they bad? And one of the things that I like that he did here and throughout the speech is hearken back to that, because it’s important to know where we were. It’s important to learn from the mistakes. It’s important to show how we’ve evolved from where we were to where we are now and to where we want to go. And I think that often gets lost in the shuffle with a lot of the policy initiatives that.

Kyle Lawrence [00:04:13]:
Not just now, but always with these things. So I, I just. I like that. I thought that was cool.

Moish Peltz [00:04:18]:
Well, but I think it also, it really drives the point clear when he’s talking about stacks of paper stock certificates that had to be physically delivered by clerks on carts and securities were lost or stolen.

Kyle Lawrence [00:04:30]:
What was the, what was the thing? The machine? You see it in, like, Hudsucker Proxy, where it’s like the stock ticker tape, the ticket. But like the end of the movie, the entire room is just filled with the ticker tape.

Moish Peltz [00:04:40]:
Yeah. There Used to be ticket, like, there were literally ticker tape parades where people threw those things down there.

Kyle Lawrence [00:04:46]:
Skyscrapers.

Moish Peltz [00:04:47]:
Right. So, I mean, I, I think this really just makes it kind of, it’s kind of jovial in a way, but it makes clear that, like, the system and the regulations for the system were not static, and we’re not meant to be static and have always evolved to, to catch up with modern times and new technology. And so when there’s so much resistance to evolution of regulation, you have to like, remind people, like, well, why are the regulations the way they are? They evolved to here. They’re not static and they shouldn’t remain static. They need to evolve for new technologies going forward. So I think it’s really nice to hear someone, a regulator even give that kind of context.

Kyle Lawrence [00:05:31]:
Yeah.

Moish Peltz [00:05:32]:
And so here, here he is, right. He says at the end of the section of the speech, our regulatory framework need not be anchored to an analog past unkind to new frontiers. After all, the future is arriving at full speed and the world is not waiting. America must do more than just keep pace with a digital asset revolution. We must drive it.

Kyle Lawrence [00:05:54]:
Kind of a condemnation of the way Congress operates. And I don’t mean that in a political way of right versus left, or whatever it is. The common refrain is that government is always 10 years behind society and culture. And that’s true. And that gulf has probably grown in recent years just because of the gridlock that we’ve seen over the past decade. Plus, it’s almost like he’s in a nice way pointing the finger at the entire system that surrounds this and says, look, we can’t just sit on our hands. We have to move forward. And we’ve talked about it on prior episodes, and there’s certainly enough literature on it that other countries are sort of grabbing the baton from us and passing legislation.

Kyle Lawrence [00:06:34]:
Whether it’s, it’s good or bad, they’re doing it and we haven’t been. So, so I’m with them on this.

Moish Peltz [00:06:41]:
Well, it also speaks to. Even if we’re 10 years behind, which I think sounds generous, it, it’s, it’s accelerating. Right. Technology is continuing to evolve and accelerate. And so, you know, being 10 years behind, it feels like 30 years from.

Kyle Lawrence [00:06:57]:
Right.

Moish Peltz [00:06:58]:
Yeah, you know, the ticker tape era. All right, so, you know, this, this really next part of the speech, Forging the Future, America’s leadership in the golden age of Finance. And, and really the, the reason for Project Crypto. It’s, it’s really calling back to the presidential working group. With recommendations following this, this North Star, to, you know, make the America first. America should be first in blockchain. So he says in the speech, this report is the blueprint to make America first in blockchain and crypto technology. The President said last week that he wants the entire world running on the backbone of American technology.

Moish Peltz [00:07:40]:
And I stand ready to help get that job done. So, obviously this is a political statement, too. And, you know, I think he’s trying to make some people happy and seeing him say the right things. But I really feel that, that everything the agency is doing is not just giving lip service, but is actually really trying to put these things into action.

Kyle Lawrence [00:07:59]:
Completely agree. The work that Commissioner Peirce has been doing, friend of the POD and chair Atkins, they are putting their best foot forward. I mean, I’m going to talk about this a little bit later. There’s obviously a lot of, call it what you will fluff or, you know, an extension of what President Trump talked about back in January. January in the presidential order and what he talked about last year in Nashville. This is kind of an extension of that. There’s a little bit more detail in here, obviously, which is, is always refreshing, but there is still a lot of that in here. And, you know, my fear with these things is always, you know, crypto is great.

Kyle Lawrence [00:08:33]:
Let’s be the, the number one in the world in crypto, and everybody celebrates and the numbers go up and nothing actually happens. But the work that Commissioner Peirce is doing is boots on the ground. She is opening the doors to people, and this is an extension of that. So very happy to see that the wheels of motion are in motion. I messed that up. But, but that, that’s what it is. And it’s just, it’s, it’s refreshing because our government doesn’t always work at all. So this is good.

Moish Peltz [00:08:59]:
Yeah, and that’s exactly right. And even this past week, I saw Commissioner Peirce posting on social media that she wants to meet with people that are innovating and starting new companies, specifically that have done so in the past year and are under 10 people in size and trying to really hear from those constituents. You know, what can we do to make it easier for you to start up and innovate? And I mean, here in the speech, Commissioner Atkins says, whether an incumbent or a new entrant, the SEC welcomes all market participants who are hungry to innovate. And look, this is what we’ve been saying all along, like, this is the way to make the United States the best place in the world to start a business. Is you got to give the regulatory structure to make that happen. And I think they’re earnestly trying to do it.

Kyle Lawrence [00:09:47]:
Let the innovators innovate, let the entrepreneurs through the door and let them do their thing. You can’t stifle it. We will lose.

Moish Peltz [00:09:53]:
All right, so the next section of the speech is about onshoring crypto A new day at the sec. This is something we’ve talked a lot about, is this idea that companies feel they need to go offshore because operating in the US Just carries so many risks. But going offshore doesn’t really solve all these problems. So here he’s saying, first we’ll work to bring crypto asset distributions back to America. The days of convoluted offshore corporate structures, decentralization theater, and confusion over security status are over. President Trump has said that America is in its golden age. And under our new agenda, our crypto asset economy will be, too.

Kyle Lawrence [00:10:30]:
Now, we’d like to see a little more clarity as to what that means. Obviously, the regulations still have to be drawn up. But he’s exactly right. And we’ve talked about this before. We talk about it with our clients every day. Just had a client today email me and saying, I don’t know what’s going on in the U.S. let’s go offshore. And I had to candidly explain to him how one, more complicated that is and two, how much more expensive it actually is to do that there than it is here.

Kyle Lawrence [00:10:53]:
And you’re right, it doesn’t serve as this panacea and cure all the ills. I mean, we’ve had the discussion with people countless times where it’s, I don’t want to pay U.S. taxes. Let me set up in the Cayman Islands. It’s like, all right, where are you based in New York? Where are all your employees? Oh, they’re here in New York. It’s like, where are all your investors? Oh, they’re here in New York. It’s like, well, that doesn’t. Sorry, that doesn’t work that way.

Kyle Lawrence [00:11:12]:
I don’t make the rules. But that’s insane. So this is fantastic. Obviously, we need to see more detail about what this is going to look like and what this means. We, we need the clear roadmap of how people are going to do this. But, you know, but, but this is what I mean, you know, to pay play devil’s advocate. It’s, you know, he talks a little bit here about some specifics, but it’s a lot of lip service and extension of what we’ve heard before. But I’d like to see a little more concrete detail.

Moish Peltz [00:11:36]:
Yeah, Right. And this is, this is recommendations like building on the Presidential Working group report. And it’s, it’s the ultimately the opinion of one commissioner, granted, the commissioner that has the majority, but it all has to be built and promulgated. And even if the SEC says this is the way of the road. Right. If a federal judge can ultimately make up their own decisions based on what they perceive as the rule of law as applied to those facts and circumstances. I like what he has here. Right.

Moish Peltz [00:12:09]:
He’s directing the commission staff to work to develop clear guidelines that market participants can use to determine whether a crypto asset is a security or subject to an investment contract.

Kyle Lawrence [00:12:19]:
Right. And it’s what we’ve been clamoring for for years. And I like the quote here that in addition, it should not be a scarlet letter to be deemed a security, which is something that we’ve talked about. It’s something I’ve been advising people for years, you know, people, I don’t want to be a security. It’s like, well, if you are, at least you have an idea of what it is you’re supposed to do in order to comply with the laws that are in existence. So, yeah, it can be a little bit more expensive, but would you rather pay a little more, a little bit more money and not go to jail? I know I would.

Moish Peltz [00:12:48]:
Right. And, and we hear that time and time again. It’s like, I’m not trying to skirt the law, I just want to know what to do. If you tell me what to do, I’ll do it. And the reality was the prior administration wouldn’t provide the rules of the road. They would not provide clear guidelines.

Kyle Lawrence [00:13:04]:
So true.

Moish Peltz [00:13:04]:
And so here, you know, they’re directing the commencement of the work to provide those guidelines, but of course, we don’t actually have them yet. So that’s the, that’s the next step. But he, but he does write, say here, the next part of the speech. Thus, for those crypto asset transactions that are subject to the security laws, I have asked staff to propose purpose fit disclosures, exemptions and safe harbors, including for so called ICOs, airdrops and network rewards. So the idea that issuers should no longer exclude Americans from distributions and that Americans should enjoy legal certainty in an accommodating regulatory environment, and that will lead to a Cambrian explosion in innovation. So I mean, again, saying all the right things, we just got to see the rubber hit the road.

Kyle Lawrence [00:13:53]:
And he said, Cambrian explosion. The man after my own heart.

Moish Peltz [00:13:58]:
So he also talks about tokenization including of common stock bonds, partnership interests and other securities. And then the next part of the speech talks about enhancing freedom choice among custodians trading venues. I don’t think there’s that much to talk about in this section, except I just like that he calls out the right to have self custody of one’s private property as a core American value. I think the fact that that’s also just part of this and being recognized is pretty cool. Something I obviously agree with. And yeah, I don’t know if there’s other parts of that that you want to highlight, Kyle.

Kyle Lawrence [00:14:30]:
Not really. I mean it’s fairly self explanatory and it’s consistent with everything that this entire industry has talked about for, for years. And he, he’s exactly right. And, and you hit the nail on the head before when the prior administration, not just at the government level but at the regulatory agencies didn’t understand that and would put up roadblocks to that. It just, it makes no sense. It’s not even worth belaboring. But it just, it didn’t make any sense. This is, that’s to me is an absolute no brainer.

Moish Peltz [00:14:56]:
All right, next part of the speech talks about horizontal integration of super apps, which I think is a really cool concept. And the idea that if you want to offer securities under the umbrella with other cool stuff, it’s really difficult because you kind of have to opt into one regulatory system and if you do that, it excludes all the other systems. So making it easier for you know, comprehensive software systems to let people trade, you know, securities, commodities, defi stablecoins, banking, all under one roof. I gotta say. Sounds cool.

Kyle Lawrence [00:15:30]:
I mean if they do call it reg super app, I would be very pleased. And he’s exactly right. Again. I don’t want to keep repeating the same thing, but it’s this no brainer stuff. But this is why I always get nervous about these things. Because let’s say, let’s have these lofty goals, let’s make America the best. Okay, cool. What does that actually mean? How do we do that? And that’s where you said where the rubber meets the road.

Kyle Lawrence [00:15:51]:
That’s exactly right. I mean he gets into some of that stuff, but that’s always just what makes me nervous about these things. Very low.

Moish Peltz [00:15:56]:
I think being nervous is right because there is only so much time to make this happen before you know, we’re, we’re going to be in election season for the midterms, like pretty soon. We’re getting there and you know, kind of when you turn the clock to 2026, it’s kind of a question mark like, well, how much is actually going to get done in washington? So the sec can still kind of work through these issues and issue regulations, but if you want, you know, market structure, if you want tax reform, these things are going to take acts of congress. And so, you know, it’s, it’s godspeed. Godspeed. The next section talks about unleashing U.S. Markets. Big, beautiful on chain software systems.

Moish Peltz [00:16:35]:
Some big, beautiful flowery language in here, but you know, we gotta, you know, rubber road kind of.

Kyle Lawrence [00:16:41]:
At least they’re consistent.

Moish Peltz [00:16:42]:
Fostering innovation, commercial viability is our true north. Is I think the penultimate section here, and this is what they’ve been talking about, is allowing giving exemptive relief. So, so he says, under my vision for an innovation exemption, innovators and visionaries will be able to immediately enter the market with new technologies and business models, but will not be required to comply with incompatible or burdensome prescriptive regulatory requirements that hinder productive economic activity, is something that he said. Now, several times Commissioner Peirce has hinted at about the idea that the SEC can more assertively wield their exemptive relief to allow market participants to not be bound by rules that don’t make sense for the business activity that they’re contemplating. I think that’s great. Like, I mean, yeah, it just, I don’t know how much of it we’ve seen publicly so far. That’s one of those things that I expected would happen a bit more quickly because it’s something that seems to be more on the unilateral abilities of the sec and its commissioners.

Moish Peltz [00:17:50]:
Yeah, but it sounds like it’s going to start coming.

Kyle Lawrence [00:17:53]:
Well, and what he’s talking about specifically here is this idea that previously, if you wanted to comply with the federal securities laws, let’s say you wanted to go public and you’re issuing a token while the public, the securities act says, well, you need to have audited financials and you need to have your plan as to what you’re going to do with all the money. Well, you’re a crypto company. You, you don’t have audited financials, and what are you auditing, and you don’t have a plan for going forward. You’re just issuing a token for everybody to watch the number go up. And these companies would just get rejected right out the gate if they even got, you know, unless they got arrested by walking into the sec. So he’s exactly right. There was a complete incongruity there for people who were trying to do the right thing and couldn’t do it. The only thing I would say here is, that’s great.

Kyle Lawrence [00:18:37]:
I’m all for an innovation exemption, and that’s fantastic. And he talks about, you know, maybe these people would have a commitment to make periodic reports consistent with the securities laws incorporating whitelisting or verified pool functionality restricted token securities. That’s all great, but he does say earlier in the speech, it’s almost like an afterthought. We can do all these things, but of course we have to make sure that the ultimate investors are protected, which is the charge that the SEC has in its formation. And to me, as a securities attorney, I agree with everything he’s saying here. But that last bit, it’s like he just said it because he has to. It cannot be an afterthought. Innovation exemptions are great.

Kyle Lawrence [00:19:15]:
But all this talk about, and here’s kind of my hot take on this entrepreneurship, I’m all for it. Innovation, absolutely. We should be the leader in all these things. But when you say let’s let the free market decide and come what may, we’ve seen what the free market decides. The free market has decided that employees don’t deserve to get paid. You know, it’s like you have to have guardrails on and it does not work. We’ve seen it happen in China, we’ve seen it happen in Russia. Let’s not do that.

Moish Peltz [00:19:42]:
Well, we’ve seen it happen here with FTX and Celsius. Like, that’s the free market too. Right. So, so investors want to be protected and they want to do all these cool things until they lose all their money and then like, hey, why didn’t you protect it?

Kyle Lawrence [00:19:54]:
Right, exactly. Right, exactly.

Moish Peltz [00:19:58]:
But, you know, it does get back to this idea that, you know, if we do, it’s hard because we can’t move to trustless systems because the regulations don’t allow for them.

Kyle Lawrence [00:20:10]:
Correct.

Moish Peltz [00:20:12]:
But in theory, enabling trustless systems would solve many of these problems and make it so, you know, bankruptcies, insolvency, someone stealing your money is just technologically not possible. Right, but that’s part of what we’re talking about here, right, Is making sure that we have regulatory tools that get there.

Kyle Lawrence [00:20:36]:
Make it a feature, not a bug kind of thing. That was my soapbox kind of moment. You know, I, I knew it was coming. It had to come at some point. And I agree with you that we do need to swing the pendulum and allow these things to happen and grow and foster. And there’s a Lot of good actors out there. I’m not besmirching. The entire industry is just being, you know, bottom feeders.

Kyle Lawrence [00:20:53]:
That’s not what I’m doing at all. But there do need, There needs to be something. But I agree, what we have now is too much of that something.

Moish Peltz [00:21:00]:
So, yeah, well, in the mix, the mix wasn’t, as we talked many times before, was incentivizing bad actors and constraining the good ones. So this is gonna hopefully level the playing field a little bit. And just, just to comment on one more thing, which is he specifically references the ERC3643 proposal which would allow for permissioned tokens, so compliance tokens. Basically, if you want your wallet to be able to trade that token, you need to have been gone through a KYC AML or accredited investor kind of certification and then having permission tokens that allow that technologically, I think that’s cool. I think it’s cool that the SEC commissioner is referencing Ethereum standards in his speeches.

Kyle Lawrence [00:21:48]:
That is cool.

Moish Peltz [00:21:49]:
That’s what innovation looks like.

Kyle Lawrence [00:21:50]:
Yeah, it’s nice to have a regulator who understands what it is they’re regulating. Definitely a step in the right direction.

Moish Peltz [00:21:57]:
Yeah. So look, he says, you know, we’re not going to watch from the sidelines. We will lead, we will build, and we will ensure the next chapter of financial innovation is written right here in America. I just think it’s a really cool, thoughtful speech. And that’s Project Crypto.

Kyle Lawrence [00:22:10]:
Nailed it. Love to see it.

Moish Peltz [00:22:13]:
You got up on your soapbox and there’s a lot to speak about there. Let’s see if we can’t get on with the show now and do the rest of Lock in order.

Kyle Lawrence [00:22:21]:
I have faith in us.

Moish Peltz [00:22:23]:
You ready to head back to the order, Kyle?

Kyle Lawrence [00:22:25]:
Back to the good. Back to the drawing board, my friend. Let’s kick it off. Or re. Kick it off.

Moish Peltz [00:22:30]:
Our next topic on the order is the SEC vs ripple appeal. After all these years. What, When? What was it like a 2021 case, Kyle?

Kyle Lawrence [00:22:39]:
2020. It started, yeah.

Moish Peltz [00:22:41]:
2020, yep. So here we are five years later, finally, mercifully, it’s over.

Kyle Lawrence [00:22:49]:
It is, yeah. We finally arrived at it. So basically this was in the appeal stage and both sides came together and said, we’re spending too much money. This is stupid. All of the other cases are being dismissed. What are we doing? This is a squander of everyone’s resources and. And realistically we can disagree on whether or not what Ripple was doing was legit or illegal or what. What have you in light of my soapbox moment earlier, they’re not the bad guys here.

Kyle Lawrence [00:23:17]:
You know, what they did was they engaged in what the SEC perceived as you’re selling an unlicensed security, which everybody, according to them, was doing. So now it’s over. And, you know, we actually have someone speeding.

Moish Peltz [00:23:31]:
You still get a ticket.

Kyle Lawrence [00:23:34]:
That’s true. It’s. But you got me there. That’s my, that’s my reasoning. You can’t use my own logic against me.

Moish Peltz [00:23:42]:
That’s what we do here, block in order.

Kyle Lawrence [00:23:44]:
That’s the whole show we do at work. Also, it’s like, you know, sometimes I represent a buyer, sometimes I represent a seller. I’ll contradict myself from one call to the next, but I’m happy to see that, you know, in light of everything now we have Judge Torres’s decision, which is actually binding. President is one of the few that we have. You know, XRP is not a security, which is, which is fantastic. We know that programmatic sales are not going to be deemed as securities. Awesome. We actually have something beneficial that came out of this and it’s over.

Kyle Lawrence [00:24:13]:
So I think this is great. I don’t know if it’s a complete vindication for everything, but I’m happy for Ripple and I’m happy that this is over.

Moish Peltz [00:24:20]:
Look, I’m happy it’s over in some respects. I also think it’s a shame that we did not get an appeal here. And I know both parties were like, yeah, let’s get rid of this. And then the judge was like, no, you can’t do that. And they said, really? Please. Pretty please. And then they finally got found a way to dismiss the appeal. And, you know, so, so the order does stand.

Moish Peltz [00:24:42]:
We don’t have an appellate decision on it. They did still have a finding that they violated securities law. They still had to pay 125 million dollar fine, which I believe that still had to be paid. Still pretty significant. Although I guess for.

Kyle Lawrence [00:24:58]:
Not for them, not for them.

Moish Peltz [00:25:00]:
But I think, I think that’s kind of the point. Right. Ripple kind of got away with it. They, they, they did lots of sales early on, was found to be at least partially a securities violation. The sec basically, they outlast the ripple, outlasted the sec. The administration changed over. The new SEC said, you know, we’re just happy to get rid of it. And Ripple kind of got away with it.

Moish Peltz [00:25:28]:
They just outlasted the sec paid. What is for them is a nominal fine, despite the fact that they were found by a judge to have committed, you know, some significant securities violations.

Kyle Lawrence [00:25:41]:
It’s true. It’s kind of fascinating to think about this. You take a step back and if the administration doesn’t change hands the way that it did, we’re having a completely different discussion about that. And that’s always, that, that’s always a fascinating wrinkled to these things. You know, think of all these cases, Moish, you know that now this one, Coinbase Crack and Gemini, every one of them, they’d still be around and forget about politicking. Like that’s, it shouldn’t be like that and that’s insane to me. And forget about what side you’re on. Like it’s just astonishing that here we are and in a year and a year and a half from now we could be completely in the other direction.

Moish Peltz [00:26:19]:
Well, that’s, that’s the like that’s my concern though is by, by denying this, the Second Circuit, the, the opportunity to weigh in and, and have an appellate review of this. There’s no legal finality. We don’t know what the law is anymore. And so yes, the SEC and its commissioner are having, you know, new regulation and Congress is going to weigh in. But I, I think we lost something here. I really do.

Kyle Lawrence [00:26:50]:
Well, good for Ripple.

Moish Peltz [00:26:53]:
All right. Well, speaking of cases that get appellate review going from the Second Circuit, which is the New York kind of circuit, to the, the left coast, the ninth Circuit, we did get a decision in the Yuga Labs versus Ryder Ripps case. And this was a mixed decision, although I think both parties found a way to say that they won the appeal. So that’s kind of a unique thing here. And, and the court, the court did two things. The ninth Circuit court, which is the, the Circuit appellate court for California, said one, and there’s, there was some con concern here, both among the parties and among the, the trademark lawyer bar about whether NFTs are themselves actually goods that are subject to the Lanham act. That, so basically whether they can be a good, that that carries trademark rights that you can enforce or whether they’re kind of digital certificates, they don’t have any meaning. You can’t enforce anything against them.

Moish Peltz [00:28:03]:
The Ninth Circuit ruled that NFTs are legitimate goods that that can be enforced and that trademark protection is available for NFTs and this industry. So I think that’s great. I think Yuga Labs really set a precedent for the entire industry in getting this decision. Now, the second part of the decision was trademark law talks about consumer confusion. To establish confusion, consumer confusion, a plaintiff needs to, there’s called sleek craft Factors. So it’s a multi factor test about how strong the mark is, how it’s sold and what channels of trade, whether consumers are confused. And you weigh all these different factors. It’s.

Moish Peltz [00:28:46]:
It’s seven or eight or nine different factors, depending on which circuit you’re in. And the judge can decide whether it is confusion, not confusion or something in the middle. And it needs to go to a jury to evaluate facts. Now, in the trial level, the judge said there is confusion. Yuga Labs wins. The appellate court said there’s some facts here. I’m not quite sure yet. I’m going to reverse and send it to the jury.

Moish Peltz [00:29:13]:
So Ryder Ripps won in the sense that it was not a summary judgment victory for Hugo. That victory was vacated, but it also was. It’s still open. The question of whether there is confusion has not been decided. The jury will now need to decide that.

Kyle Lawrence [00:29:33]:
I love it when you talk intellectual property, and you obviously know a lot more about IP than I ever will in this lifetime. But in the prior. In a prior segment, we’ve been talking about, you know, we want to foster innovation. Parody and satire is a form of innovation. You know, you’re kind of kneecapping that in some place. Now, obviously there are clear rip offs of things, and those shouldn’t be allowed. But is the scary movie franchise, which is a dated reference, sorry, kids, but is that now illegal? Like how. How do you.

Kyle Lawrence [00:30:01]:
You know how expensive it is for people to go into court and prove that? And usually what you’re doing is you’re going after a big corporate behemoth that has all these resources to fight you and you’re just trying to do something funny. I have an NFT called a peekaboo Punk. And it’s a punk, but it’s like, it’s like off on the side like this. But it looks exactly the same. Like, am I gonna lose that out?

Moish Peltz [00:30:21]:
Yes, Kyle, we’re gonna take away your.

Kyle Lawrence [00:30:23]:
Damn it.

Moish Peltz [00:30:24]:
Ripping it. Ripping it out of your wallet. Look, I’m, I’m super sympathetic to, to the. This free speech doesn’t sound concept, at least in theory. And the idea that there’s artists out there and they’re. And they’re having social commentary and they’re doing all these wonderful things with their art. Now that argument, the trial judge was like, oh, not here. This is.

Moish Peltz [00:30:47]:
That’s. And the. And the 2nd Circuit also is like, no, no, no. The free speech thing, the Supreme Court just decided that not gonna fly here. So that was like thrown right out the courthouse in this Case. But I totally, I like there has to be room for parody and satire and, and critical speech and all of that. And I think this industry is actually pretty good at it. It enables like some pretty wild characters to, to do lots of fun stuff and to create like knockoff punks.

Moish Peltz [00:31:14]:
That’s all great, but there still needs to be ways for real companies to, to enforce their brands and to make sure that real consumer harm doesn’t happen. And that’s kind of what we’re fighting for here.

Kyle Lawrence [00:31:28]:
Just seems like the line got moved a little bit. But I do like that NFT is being, now being classified as real property. That’s a good thing.

Moish Peltz [00:31:33]:
So yeah, you know the trade now the trademark attorneys can do more work in the crypto space. So there we go.

Kyle Lawrence [00:31:40]:
That. All right, well, guess what everybody. President Trump has announced a couple of weeks ago that he is pushing for, for people’s 401ks to be able to directly buy cryptocurrency, which is something that we were not able to do. And he’s also pushing for mortgages to be backed by cryptocurrency, which is something that I have mixed feelings about. But essentially you had previously 90 million Americans locked out of these alternative assets while the rich get richer and people can just buy them, you know, as they see fit. And private equity returns 13 and a half percent versus stocks 9 and 9.7% over 10 years. Like this is just a, you know, kind of a no brainer thing, crypto.

Moish Peltz [00:32:17]:
Those are both really good numbers, by the way. Yeah, historically good returns.

Kyle Lawrence [00:32:21]:
Exactly. And when you look at people’s 401ks like they should have access to these things. You know, crypto gives workers, especially young workers, a chance to general generational wealth. You know, it’s one thing to buy these stocks that do have consistent returns, but how many people do we know who have just made millions of dollars in a matter of days or weeks or however long? You know, this is a great access. This is trends access for people who had been traditionally locked out of these assets because they, you know, they couldn’t afford it other than through their 401ks. Now you can talk about companies doing a match. This is really cool stuff. The mortgage thing, I don’t know how I feel about, because I remember 2008 pretty vividly and that was not a great thing.

Kyle Lawrence [00:33:01]:
So, so that one, you know, listen, I’m all for more adoption. The more people, we harp on this all the time, the more people who are involved in the space, the better it is for all of us. The more people understand it, the better it is for everybody else. So the 401k things are great. Mortgages.

Moish Peltz [00:33:22]:
Look, I think as much as anyone, I’m someone that feels that if you’re a responsible adult, you should be able to put your money and invest in things that you want to invest in and there shouldn’t be restrictions to do that. And I think the idea that, you know, you’re restricted from trading your retirement account into crypto, which has been the best performing asset over the past, you know, decade, whenever, since whatever Bitcoin came out. So you’re talking over a decade now. And okay, so, so I like, that’s starting there. Like, that’s, that’s what I believe. Right. But I, I do have to say, right, if this is just rolled out, that anyone can invest in private equity, the fees there are going to eat people alive. The lockups, the lack of transparency on valuations, it’s gonna, like, that’s scary, right? So, and the other thing is, like, even with this executive order, which is just an executive order, employers still have a fiduciary duty to protect their employees and to protect unsophisticated investors.

Moish Peltz [00:34:33]:
So if you put things into a 401k portfolio, as an employer, you’re, you have fiduciary responsibility for those assets. And so as, as an employer, like, that’s really scary. It’s like, oh, well, I’m going to buy some private equity. I’m going to buy some for like some crypto. My 401k, like, thanks, boss. And then like it tanks 100% and they’re locked up and they can’t get their money and they’re like, hey, you destroyed my retirement, I’m coming after you. I think companies need to be aware that that’s, that’s like their liability. They’re responsible for that.

Moish Peltz [00:35:04]:
So I think this is potentially scary. Like, I. Great, everyone should have access to crypto. I have access to crypto in my ira like I want. I think other people should have an easier way to get that. I think that’s great, but I think we need to be a bit more holistic to the approach here than, and executive order is going to solve this. I think this is a big structural problem and there’s a lot of risk in this ecosystem that like, you know, calling back 2008, I was in South Florida, I went to law school with mortgage brokers. They were like, yeah, I’m out of there now.

Moish Peltz [00:35:36]:
Yeah, like, it got bad down there. And I think people forget that but look, this crypto people are going to take it because at the end of the day people are working 9 to 5 and say, hey, I see everyone getting rich off crypto and I want to make my own and I’m going to put all my money into there and then they’re going to lose their shirt. Like, you got to think about them too.

Kyle Lawrence [00:35:59]:
And to be fair, people lose their shirts all the time for reasons completely out of everybody’s control. That has nothing to do with crypto. It just happened a couple months ago.

Moish Peltz [00:36:09]:
But, but that, but that’s, that’s their choice when it’s, when it’s. Your employer’s fiduciary duty. Yeah, it, it takes it like one step out of that. And that’s where I’m like, okay, I, I think it should happen, but I think people need to be clear eyed about the risks as both an employee and investing things stupidly, which, great. But then as the employer and the fiduciary responsibilities, I just wish that was easier for employers to do this without getting dinged because I think that will fundamentally make it much easier for people to make smarter investment choices.

Kyle Lawrence [00:36:46]:
He’s a company man, ladies and gentlemen.

Moish Peltz [00:36:49]:
Yeah.

Kyle Lawrence [00:36:52]:
Oh, our good friend Nathaniel Chastain. You remember him. So a couple years ago, I forget exactly when this was, but it was during the NFT boom. And this dude worked at OpenSea, right? And what he was doing, if memory serves, was he basically got, just because he worked there, advance notice of which NFTs were going to be featured on OpenSea’s homepage. And he would then go in and buy them at whatever the price was. And then magically, the next day they would be featured and the price would go up and then he would sell them and made a profit. Now, he only made, apparently, I read this, $57,000 in total, which, I don’t.

Moish Peltz [00:37:29]:
Know, a bit of an exaggerate, it was a little bit less crazy, like.

Kyle Lawrence [00:37:33]:
Yeah, okay, fine, okay, but whatever it is, but so he was sentenced for wire fraud and insider trading and all these kinds of things and basically now he’s been exonerated. And the court said in, in short, that insider trading is okay if it’s not property. To me, this is just like, I understand. Well, listen, we’re lawyers and we operate on technicalities and every, every person deserves a zealous defense and all that and great. And good for, and good for him for now being able to go look at the sky and touch grass and all that stuff, that’s great. But in the abstract, this is absolutely insane to me. Like this, he, that is insider trading. Literally, that is it.

Kyle Lawrence [00:38:13]:
And if we’re going to exonerate people over these kind of like. Well, not really. I don’t know. This to me opens the floodgate and it’s the exact kind of thing that we’re worried about by saying let the free market decide these things. Well, here you go.

Moish Peltz [00:38:26]:
Right. Well this, this is the free market deciding. And then the appellate courts, I mean, this is the appellant episode, I guess. Well, look, there’s a few things in there, right? One is, I think if you look at the wire fraud statutes, they’ve, they’re a lot of appellate arguments have actually won showing that as applied, they’re, they’re quite vague and it’s very difficult to, to I think enforce the wire fraud statutes effectively. And I think here they stretched it a little bit too far and they were trying to like, I think stretch it too far obviously. But then it just seemed like it didn’t quite fit. And so you have to look, it’s kind of technical, but if you look at what was the inside information that Nate was actually trading on and it wasn’t something that it was kind of like, well, he did something bad, it was unethical, but it didn’t quite seem like he had actually misappropriated inside information from someone in the way that was required under the law. So that was kind of how it broke.

Moish Peltz [00:39:28]:
And so I think this just goes right back to federal prosecutors stretching the wire fraud beyond what it was ever intended to do. It was never intended to contemplate someone like, like publishing NFT information and like trading on the back. It’s just like that wasn’t what it was intended for. So traditional laws just like don’t fit this. If we want right sized like criminal statutes to cover kind of crypto trading and inside, like a more unethical stuff, I think we need, that’s the law we would need to pass. But you know, look, I think, I think it’s like this is the free market. If you lost money on OpenSea because Nate front run you a little bit. Like, I don’t know, this is kind of part of the game.

Moish Peltz [00:40:13]:
I don’t know. Like, is that, is that too harsh?

Kyle Lawrence [00:40:17]:
Yeah, I, I think, I think you, I, you, I was with you until that last part because.

Moish Peltz [00:40:23]:
Fair enough, that was a little bit.

Kyle Lawrence [00:40:24]:
I mean, Jordan Bell, I mean like Sir Jordan Belfort, it’s like, yeah, he was just don’t hate the player, hate the game kind of thing. I Mean, what this dude is doing was no different than what Ivan Boesky and Michael Milken, all those Den of Thieves guys, which is a great book, by the way. All those guys were doing that. Ivan Boesky died last year. But that’s basically what they were doing. It was, hey, this company is about to have. It’s about to get this government contract. You should short the stock, you know, like all that.

Kyle Lawrence [00:40:48]:
I mean, like, I don’t know, it’s a similar animal. I hear what you’re saying about the laws not being unnecessarily one to one connect as to what he’s doing, and that’s fine. But the idea that he wasn’t insider trading, I. I think that’s a bit of a stretch.

Moish Peltz [00:41:05]:
Well, unfortunately, Kyle, the. The appellant chords.

Kyle Lawrence [00:41:09]:
Hey, listen. What do I know?

Moish Peltz [00:41:12]:
Well, congrats, Nate. Welcome.

Kyle Lawrence [00:41:14]:
Welcome back to the free world. I’m happy for you. Whatever. That’s where it is.

Moish Peltz [00:41:22]:
All right, well, on to our last segment of the order today, YouTube AI Age detection. So, Kyle, what do you think? Are we here to protect the kids or have we finally gone into our end state? AI surveillance state?

Kyle Lawrence [00:41:40]:
Well, I have a lot to say about this if you. If you can bear with me for. For a bit, because, please, this foragers. Let’s protect kids. Fine. You want to protect your kids? Just don’t give them a cell phone. Don’t let them have access to it. That’s how you protect your kids.

Kyle Lawrence [00:41:55]:
I grew up without it, and I turned out perfectly fine. But I’m on a crypto podcast. Everything is going my way. But. So if you remember, during COVID there was the bar exam, right? And the way kids. The way people had to take it was they would sit on their laptop and they had to install the software on their laptop, and. And it monitored their face. And if you turned and sneezed or looked away or did anything, it flagged you.

Kyle Lawrence [00:42:25]:
And then examined what it was you were doing to determine whether or not you were cheating, whether you’re rifling through books or whatever it was. But if you got up to go to the bathroom, you are automatically done. And that was it. And that was the end of your bar exam. So if you’re pregnant, you know what happens? This to me is kind of an extension of that. And I brought up War of the Worlds in the opening, and I bet you were waiting with bated breath as to why I was going to bring that up. So in that movie. And by the way, I’m spoil it for you and you’re welcome, because that movie sucks.

Kyle Lawrence [00:42:51]:
So what happens in that movie is.

Moish Peltz [00:42:53]:
I heard it was like, the worst movie in decades.

Kyle Lawrence [00:42:57]:
You should actually watch it to see how impressively terrible it is. So Ice Cube is the star of it, and the whole movie is this. It takes place on a computer screen, and he works for some amorphous government spying company. I don’t know what it is. As my camera zooms in on me because the NSA is now listening that I brought this up. And he basically uses the power of his hacking wizardry to. To defeat the aliens. And throughout the movie, he has a pregnant daughter.

Kyle Lawrence [00:43:22]:
And at some point, he watches his daughter go from her apartment to wherever it is. And he has access to every security camera, every single one, all the way on the route. And he thinks she looks a little pale, so he looks into her refrigerator remotely from his computer. I see what’s in your fridge. You’re. You’re not eating this. You’re not. You need to be eating that.

Kyle Lawrence [00:43:40]:
You need to take care of the baby. Oh, what are you texting? Oh, I can see your heart rate. I can hack your phone. And that’s how he later learns that she’s alive when she gets attacked. And the message of the story is all of these things are good for humanity. He used these tools to save his daughter’s life. And the end of the movie, you know, how they defeat the aliens? They send. I’m sorry, you can bleep that out.

Moish Peltz [00:44:01]:
You’re spoiling the worst movie.

Kyle Lawrence [00:44:03]:
A data drive. Well, more because I cussed. A data drive gets shipped to him via Amazon prime drone to him that he then uses to. To load the virus into their software. So Amazon, a movie produced and distributed and released on Amazon, produced by Amazon is. And the world is saved by Amazon. And this is all part and parcel of this. It’s.

Kyle Lawrence [00:44:26]:
It’s. The AI is gonna. Is. Is taking over and watching our lives. And if they can. And if they can stop your kids from doing YouTube and they can check your heartbeat and they can see all the things that are in your fridge, God knows what else they can do. They can sell you things you don’t want. They can have access to everything and everything you are and own.

Kyle Lawrence [00:44:44]:
And to me, I. I just think this is how it starts. And I. I don’t need to be catastrophic or catastrophizing or whatever that word is, but I just don’t like any of this. Thank you for indulging that.

Moish Peltz [00:44:58]:
Well, thanks for sharing, Kyle. Yes, I. I guess I. I just don’t see the harm the same. I mean, look, for sure, we’re in an age of just incredible change in technology and artificial intelligence being this thing that we’re like kind of crossing our fingers that it’s not gonna go rogue and take over the world. So there, there is that and I, and I get that. And there’s like a part of me that is genuinely concerned about that. But the idea that YouTube is gonna use AI to detect what seems to be, in their estimation, a really easy way to see whether the users are kids or teens or, you know, older.

Moish Peltz [00:45:47]:
And then for the people that are obviously behaving like they’re little kids, to just give them the minor protection that they would give people that I self identified at a younger age. I have kids. Like, I don’t want them seeing crazy crap on YouTube just because they’re not on their kids channel. Maybe that’s a good thing that we’re using technology to on the margins, like, not let kids radicalize themselves and go down a rabbit hole where they, you know, do some crazy stuff like, you know, and there’s no way to manually police this content. It’s just, there’s too much of it. There’s hundreds or thousands of hours that are produced every second. So, you know, why not let YouTube kind of just go out there and roll out age detection systems that do what they’re supposed to do.

Kyle Lawrence [00:46:33]:
That’s all fine. And I don’t have kids, so maybe I’m coming at it from a slightly different angle. And I agree with you. When it’s like, I go on to, you know, Caskers, and the thing pops up and says, are you 21? And I just click yes, doesn’t it? Like, yes, that is stupid. But we’re seeing people.

Moish Peltz [00:46:49]:
Took me a minute to figure out. Casker, it’s like, wait, what website are you going?

Kyle Lawrence [00:46:52]:
Okay, I think it’s the, it’s the whiskey.

Moish Peltz [00:46:55]:
Okay, yeah, yeah, I got there, I got there.

Kyle Lawrence [00:46:58]:
Where’s your mind at Moish? But I mean, we’re seeing people.

Moish Peltz [00:47:02]:
What about the kids? Not seeing bad stuff. Not freaking so.

Kyle Lawrence [00:47:05]:
But look, we’re. We’re seeing people’s citizenship challenge for the things they’re saying in, in online editorials. If, if there’s technology that says, hey, you can’t look at this site because of the other things you’re looking at, that is, it’s not a far leap to, oh, what are these other things you’re looking at? And we’re seeing a lot of that in the federal government today. And that’s not catastrophizing. That’s happening.

Moish Peltz [00:47:30]:
And to me, we’re seeing different US States and we’re seeing different foreign governments. Say, if you’re. If you don’t sign in and provide your age verification in a. In a more authentic way, you cannot access certain kinds of websites. And I think that’s just insane. Absolutely crazy. Right? So I get. I get that part of it.

Kyle Lawrence [00:47:51]:
I don’t know. I just. I fear where, like, this kind of thing is going, because this is just a stepping stone to, oh, you can’t look at this video because of the other things you’re looking at. Oh, you’re looking at this website that has. It’s not pornographic, it’s not illegal. It’s political commentary. You know, will I be. Be shut out of certain sites because I have a New York Times subscription? I also have a Wall Street Journal subscription.

Kyle Lawrence [00:48:14]:
Like, what. Like, where does that end? And I. And to me, this is a very, very slippery slope. I. I hear what you’re. What you’re saying, and I don’t disagree with. With. What you’re saying is insofar as you want to protect the kids and.

Kyle Lawrence [00:48:24]:
And that’s true. And all fair, and there is some nasty on YouTube. I’m not doubting that. But. But this is how we start to get to that place where Demolition man happens, where I say shit, and the thing comes out of the wall and I get fined and it automatically deducts it from my crypto wallet.

Moish Peltz [00:48:43]:
Well, look, we are on a crypto podcast, and I don’t think every problem, it can be solved by just applying more technology. But I do think the idea that you can have verified credentials that say this user is over 21 without giving your name and age and, you know, political views and other websites you visit and use the technology to solve for that. Like, the least minimum information to get access. And that technology exists, and we should leverage that instead of having, you know, crazy government ID requirements or AI surveillance apparatuses, like. So let’s. Let’s use the technology for good. And I think there’s probably opportunity for that here.

Kyle Lawrence [00:49:32]:
You’re gonna love War of the Worlds. Yeah.

Moish Peltz [00:49:36]:
You’re gonna make me watch this crappy thing, aren’t you?

Kyle Lawrence [00:49:38]:
It’s short.

Moish Peltz [00:49:40]:
Okay, fine.

Kyle Lawrence [00:49:42]:
It’s 90 minutes, including credits. Well, that wraps it up for a banner episode of Block and Order. Please don’t forget to like and subscribe to our channel. If there’s any topics that you would like us to cover, please leave a comment down below. We do take those very seriously. Please note that the show is meant for informational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing that we say or talk about is meant to be construed as legal and or financial advice. Especially financial advice.

Kyle Lawrence [00:50:04]:
Please hire your own consultants and representatives if you’re going to take the plunge. Neither the discussion of nor the fact that Moish and I may own any of the assets we discuss, including but not limited to Peekaboo punks, is meant to serve as an endorsement of such assets. Very special thank you to producer Moish. He’s doing a bang up job, ladies and gentlemen. So on behalf of producer Moish, I’m Kyle Lawrence. Take care, everybody.

Moish Peltz [00:50:27]:
See you next time.

Please note that this show is meant for informational and entertainment purposes only. This is not legal advice. Please hire your own attorney. The hosts or guests appearing on Block and Order may hold cryptocurrency, NFTs, or other digital assets from companies mentioned during our programming. This possession of digital assets does not constitute a professional endorsement, legal advice, or financial advice. Listeners are encouraged to consult with their own legal and financial advisors for personalized guidance in the blockchain and cryptocurrency space.