Kyle Lawrence and Moish Peltz sit down with Jonathan C. Dunsmoor, former corporate attorney and South Carolina President of Stand With Crypto, to discuss the future of cryptocurrency regulation and the push for mainstream adoption. They dive into the challenges surrounding the CLARITY Act, the growing connection between AI and blockchain, and how stablecoins could transform everyday payments and financial transactions.

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Chapters:

00:00 – Welcome to Block & Order
02:14 – Introduction to Jonathan Dunsmoor & Stand With Crypto
04:23 – Grassroots advocacy and crypto education
09:42 – Public perception of cryptocurrency
13:30 – The CLARITY Act and regulatory challenges
20:26 – AI, blockchain & the future of regulation
28:55 – Stablecoins and real-world adoption
35:03 – The future of crypto advocacy
39:38 – Final thoughts & predictions

Watch or listen to the podcast here:

   

Transcript:

**This transcript has been prepared automatically by AI and may contain inaccuracies**

Kyle Lawrence [00:00:11]:
So as we sit here with John Dunsmoor, the South Carolina president of Stand With Crypto, I remember my first ever crypto conference where I got to speak. And I don’t know if you remember this, but you were my co-panelist. And you essentially shepherded me through the forest. You guided me, you told me where I needed to stand, even how to sit. I’m not making that up.

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:00:39]:
I— that’s an honor. It truly is. But you, you have been a gift to this industry. And you have helped shepherd far more people than I have with, you know, simply telling you how and where to sit on a pesky panel. So I appreciate that. But yeah, it’s been a long journey, my friend. It seems like— seems like decades.

Kyle Lawrence [00:01:00]:
It does feel like decades. Well, I just was lamenting, lamenting this about, about the fact that some of my associates, when they were asking me something, they were like, oh, we, you know, we worked on this deal recently. I was like, oh yeah, that was 2 weeks ago. And it was a year ago.

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:01:15]:
Yeah.

Kyle Lawrence [00:01:16]:
Yeah.

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:01:16]:
Time in crypto is like dog years.

Kyle Lawrence [00:01:19]:
It’s true. It really is true, for better or for worse. And yet here we are without Clarity Act magically. So it moves fast, but it also takes eons. It moves at glacial speed, as they say. But here we are. The journey of 1,000 miles starts with a single step from that wonderful stage a couple of years ago to now. Here we are with John Dunsmoor with Stand With Crypto Alliance.

Kyle Lawrence [00:01:43]:
Stand With Crypto Alliance, a 501 nonprofit champion— champions for clear, common sense regulations for the crypto industry. Mobilizing the approximately 67 million crypto owners in the United States, a demographic that is younger and more diverse than the general US population, to unlock crypto’s innovation potential and foster greater economic return. Welcome to the show. We’re happy to have you. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about this organization, what your journey has been like through Stand With Crypto Alliance? I’d love to hear it.

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:02:14]:
First of all, thank you for having me. As a former securities lawyer, I can tell you that having 2 of you on the phone is just really expensive and really, I really appreciate it. So that being said, uh, you know, thank you for taking the time to speak with me because this is really important. The Stand With Crypto, I guess, mission has really kind of changed from a, you know, we’re trying to educate and we’re trying to get, you know, bills passed, which is still part of our mission. But it’s also this excitement that I believe is kind of my job right now is because a lot of people are worried about the future. They’re worried about technology. They see the rise of AI. and they feel like it’s coming for their jobs.

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:02:52]:
So I’m here to kind of provide a little bit of clarity, pun intended, uh, but I’m also here to, you know, kind of show how these 2 very powerful technologies, I believe, are interrelated. And Stand With Crypto is working really hard to educate not only Democrats but also Republicans of what this technology can do and what it will do to not only our financial markets but also our finances with the passage of the Genius Act, which we got done last year and comes into enactment in January, I think that people are going to really start to see the advent of these AI agents using stablecoins and all these other kind of fun things we’re going to talk about. And so I’m just here to kind of be a little bit of the tip of the spear of saying there’s a lot of really cool technology coming. And instead of hiding from it and shying away from what may be, you know, big scary words like distributed ledger technology or Or, you know, AI, artificial intelligence, or superintelligence, depending on, you know, which way you go. It’s time to really kind of unite and say this technology is inevitable and we need to learn how to utilize it within our lives so that everything is better for everyone.

Kyle Lawrence [00:04:02]:
You’re definitely singing a similar tune to what we’ve talked about here on the show and the advice we give to our clients. It’s, you know, it’s not inevitable. It’s, I mean, it’s here and we’re past inevitability at this point. I mean, look around. Before getting into some of the specifics about what your organization does, we have the midterms coming up. I don’t know if you knew that. Big election coming up pretty soon.

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:04:23]:
I’ve heard about that.

Kyle Lawrence [00:04:24]:
Grassroots. Yeah, I heard about it somewhere. I saw a headline about that somewhere. I don’t know, some guy on the street corner was talking about it. You do grassroots work in South Carolina. What does running a state chapter look like on a day-to-day level? Like, how do you reach crypto owners who aren’t politically active, given the work that you do?

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:04:44]:
Yeah, that’s a really great question. So I tried to go at a full-fledged, you know, uh, we’re talking to everyone everywhere last year, uh, when I was doing the tailgating with Stand With Crypto. I got to meet a lot of really cool people. I got to educate a lot of folks. But what we didn’t unfortunately see is that kind of translate into more advocacy. And so I’ve kind of been laying behind the scenes and talking to some of the decision makers of the bigger policies and the bigger decisions that actually kind of fundamentally change who gets hired and who gets fired and all of those types of things. And that seems to have been actually progressing a lot better as we start kind of rolling out because quite frankly, the average person doesn’t have the time to, you know, go learn about blockchain and what, you know, what’s the difference between Ethereum and Bitcoin and things like that. So it’s when you tie that economic incentive of, you know, hey, there’s possibly a job at the end of this if I learn this and understand this technology, that’s kind of what changes people’s minds.

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:05:40]:
So it’s gone from a really grassroots, let me go talk to everyone, to realizing that while that approach is fun and we had a lot of fun at the tailgates, um, it’s better kind of for me to do podcasts like these and talk to, you know, really big decision makers in the background to let them know, hey, like you said, this technology is already here. We need to figure out how to utilize it to make more jobs, not only in South Carolina but all over the country and all over the world. Stand With Crypto is a national organization, but we have international chapters in Canada, UK, Australia, and I think we’ve got a couple others popping up. And we have colleges now. So it’s one of those things where that grassroots are being handled at all different corners. And it’s, uh, especially in South Carolina, it’s one of those things where we’re trying to take a different approach because it is those midterms that we want to get the message out in other ways so people know that when they are asked a crypto question, they can understand it and not necessarily shy away and go, oh, all crypto’s bad or all that stuff is used for money laundering, which as the two of you well know, Uncle Sam and all the other people would like to do their dirty business in, in cash. So it’s not the, it’s not the crypto that you have to worry about for that.

Kyle Lawrence [00:06:51]:
It’s really amazing that in 2026 and we’re still having those conversations about what this is used for. But alas, here we are. Sidebar for a second. You keep talking about tailgates. Would you tailgate at like a Clemson game? Like where, where are these tailgates at?

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:07:08]:
Unfortunately, that’s how I did make a deal with both, both teams this year, because last year both my beloved Gamecocks and Clemson were ranked. I think USC was 13 and I think Clemson was 9. Don’t, don’t quote me on that, but it wasn’t very shortly after that they fell out of the rankings. And I believe it was because of my harmonious nature that didn’t lend well to the, you know, chaotic atmosphere of the aggression that you’re supposed to have on the gridiron. So I have talked with both teams and I have stayed away, uh, from tailgating and trying to unite everyone in South Carolina so we can have that kind of aggressiveness on the field. And it worked out for the Gamecocks last, last week against, um, oh my God, who did we play? Uh, Florida. There we go. Um, but, you know, yeah, we had a lot of fun last year.

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:08:02]:
I went to both tailgates. It was It was tough. It was tough.

Moish Peltz [00:08:05]:
You were a top 10 team 3 weeks ago.

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:08:09]:
Uh,

Moish Peltz [00:08:10]:
man, fall from grace.

Kyle Lawrence [00:08:12]:
I went to Tulane. I got— I don’t know anything about college football, right?

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:08:18]:
One day we’ll have to get you down here because it’s— there’s nothing like, uh, I don’t know, a couple thousand— I mean, a couple— I don’t know how many tons of concrete swaying because 70,000 people are cheering and jumping. That is frightening and also amazing.

Kyle Lawrence [00:08:31]:
Yeah, it’s true. I only experienced that once at Shea Stadium in 2006 in the National League Championship Series when— God, sorry everybody, you’re going to have to listen to this. The Mets were playing the Cardinals, and the Mets were the number 1 seed in the NL that year, and their entire pitching staff was hurt. So in Game 7 of the NLCS against the 83-win Cardinals or whatever it was, Andy Chavez made the greatest catch I’ve ever seen. He robbed Scott Rowland of a home run, just absolutely robbed him. And the stadium, like, you— like an earthquake, you could feel it. I was like, well, this is amazing. It also seems really dangerous and unsafe.

Kyle Lawrence [00:09:09]:
And really terrifying.

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:09:12]:
Yeah. And

Kyle Lawrence [00:09:13]:
I knew in that moment they were gonna win the game, win the series, and win the World Series. And in vintage Met fashion, they lost. So. Here we are.

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:09:23]:
Being a Mets fan is like being a Gamecock fan. Sometimes you’re gonna ruin someone’s dreams, and the other times you’re just gonna lose to a team who’s, you know, got their D-squad in.

Kyle Lawrence [00:09:32]:
I think it’s, uh, I think it’s a little more tilted the other way, but thank you. I appreciate the camaraderie.

Moish Peltz [00:09:38]:
Yeah, given, given the Mets fans the benefit of the doubt.

Kyle Lawrence [00:09:40]:
All right, great. I appreciate that. I’m glad somebody is.

Moish Peltz [00:09:42]:
I’m curious, Jonathan, because you spend a lot more time, you know, speaking to grassroots folks about crypto, you know, what their, you know, maybe there’s not an average person, but I’m curious your sense of when you, when you go out into the world and speak to people that may not be super informed about the crypto industry, about the various crypto companies and what they’ve done and, you know, to prevent fraud and consumer protection and the lobbying and policy work that goes on. What do you, what do you, what do you think the average person sees of this industry now in 2026? And how do you think that informs their, their viewpoint from a policy perspective, if they have one at all?

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:10:31]:
It’s very interesting. Over the last year, it’s kind of shifted from, you know, they understand Bitcoin. And as much as I hate saying this, especially on camera, the XRP army is alive and well. It was amazing how many times I got, you know, shouted out by them and why they weren’t on our board or, you know, banners and merch and stuff. But people understand enough of Bitcoin to be dangerous. They understand it’s some type of digital currency. They understand that, you know, once you have it, you have it. And that’s kind of, in my mind, a real big leap.

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:11:06]:
And this year it seems to be a little bit more about the meme coins. And those failures, whether it’s with the presidents or with Hunter Biden’s recent foray into that, and that has given us all a black eye. And I don’t understand both from a policy perspective, but also from an economic perspective of why that was a good decision for anybody, both sides. And I think that if we let that narrative continue to play, we’re going to all be in a lot of trouble. And so what I’m trying to focus on a lot right now is, hey, remember how your bank would hold your money and take forever? Well, with the stablecoin stuff, that’s not going to happen anymore. It’s going to go through a lot faster. We don’t know how fast yet, but we do know it’s going to go through a lot faster. And that seems to be really exciting people As, you know, economic times are different for everyone.

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:12:08]:
And so I’m hoping that the narrative kind of starts changing. Unfortunately, it’s probably gonna be after the midterms. I’m trying to get the word out about X402 and how you could, you know, take payments right from your website and not have to worry about PayPal or have to worry about when things clear, all those kind of fun things. But we’re still in the very early stages of that. And so I’m hoping that, you know, We can get the word out in time, but we’re only, as you guys may have noticed, we’re only a couple weeks away. And so getting everyone to be on the same page of hey, these crazy crypto guys are getting my paycheck here earlier is what I’d like to you know get the message out about. But right now it’s still unfortunately about meme coins and you know money laundering and all these other kind of dirty things about bad actors. And there are still a lot of bad actors in this space.

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:12:58]:
You know Richard Hart was arrested in Istanbul this week, so. You know, he hasn’t, you know, been formally convicted. But I think that there’s a lot of still people in this industry that don’t need to be in this industry, and they had first mover advantage. And when you’re in a new industry, you’re able to take advantage of people because they don’t have that information, or just asymmetrical information gaps. And I’m hoping that with AI, that no longer happens. So sorry, that was a lot of rambling.

Kyle Lawrence [00:13:30]:
No, that’s not rambling at all. It’s a, it’s a complicated issue that requires lengthy discussion. So I think your answer is, is, is great. And, you know, moving back, you’re talking about, uh, you know, Trump Coin and Hunter Biden’s coin, uh, I think it was called Laptop. Like, I mean, and it came out and within—

Moish Peltz [00:13:50]:
I am actually mad that you and I both know that it’s called Laptop. Like,

Kyle Lawrence [00:13:54]:
I was asking you about it when it came out. I teased you that you had bought some, which I, I did not. I’m assuming you did not. I’m assuming nobody did. Uh, well, some people did, I guess.

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:14:02]:
Nobody in their right mind did.

Kyle Lawrence [00:14:03]:
Yeah, right. I mean, at that point you’re multi-years into just the, the schemers and ne’er-do-wells. But a lot of the— because this hearkens back to Clarity Act, you know, the Clarity Act in large part failed because there were a lot of ethical considerations that they were trying to cram into the final version of the bill And over the past year, while Moishe and I have been talking about, is Clarity going to pass, I’ve always been on the, I don’t think it’s gonna pass side of the fence. Not to toot my own horn, but it was hard to see it happening. And part of the reason for that is because a lot of lawmakers in Washington were not letting go of the ethical considerations that were in the bill. Now, not that those weren’t important, but to me, I felt they were throwing the baby out with the bathwater a little bit by just saying, if you don’t have this, then we’re not doing this. And to me, that was a, that was a big mistake just for the industry as a whole. Do you think the industry should have handled that differently or weighed in a little bit more on that front in order to get this through, or not really?

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:15:03]:
I mean, hindsight’s 20/20, and I don’t want to throw anybody under the bus. That’s kind of not my job. I’m trying to unite instead of divide. I think, you know, if I would have done things differently, I would have had a laundry list of things that I would have, you know, been harping and chirping about. But I sent out some pretty, uh, and, and there’s definitely copies of that email, um, to some folks that, you know, should have voted the way that would have turned things around. And I do believe, um, you know, a non-perfect bill is better than, uh, this perfect bill that, you know, is going to be stuck in legislative hell for God knows how long. And while I do still have faith that you know, we can do something with clarity. And I do think that it is ultimately necessary for our capital markets.

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:15:51]:
I mean, anybody who’s been in the cap markets knows, you know, the insanity behind GameStop and, and all those other kind of crazy things where, you know, where are the shares? It really kind of creates a unique perspective of, you know, putting things on chain and being able to actually track them down, not only from a legal perspective, but even from a consumer perspective of, you know, eventually one day saying, okay, the shares, are in my wallet or in my brokerage account and they can’t be lent out without my express permission and me signing a cryptographic key kind of thing. That’s exciting to me. I mean, it sounds really nerdy and really former securities lawyer-ish, but like it really has created such this chasm between what I was hoping happened, you know, a decade ago when I got into this industry. We’re actually at the anniversary of that when, you know, I was getting all these calls about ICOs and how to do this legally. And I said, you’re all going to jail, you shouldn’t do it. But then I had a client who basically said, you know, how would it work? And so looking back now, you know, I wish we would’ve been better advocates. I wish we would’ve gotten the word out more. I wish we would’ve kind of, you know, touted more about how this technology is ultimately going to reduce fraud and help, you know, a lot of the bad actors not be bad actors because we can see more.

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:17:09]:
I just saw, you know, the We Buy Ugly Houses guy was, you know, doing the whole Ponzi scheme of robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Kyle Lawrence [00:17:17]:
Yeah.

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:17:18]:
And so blockchain really kind of cuts a lot of that out. And we haven’t got all the rails right, we haven’t built all of the system yet, but that’s kind of one of the things I’m encouraging people to come do is if you have this experience or if you have this knowledge or you really do want to make the world a better place, there’s no better place to start than the capital markets. And that sounds really counterintuitive, but right now we have the first time in arguably 100 years since the ’33 Act and the ’34 Act to really kind of change the entire game. And I don’t know, again, in my lifetime when something like that is going to come up. I imagine it’s going to come up again with AI, but with cryptography and, you know, distributed ledger technology, we still have one more piece of big legislation to get through. But, you know, are we going to try to get others through after that? Are we going to need more regulations and more, you know, laws? I imagine we will, but we’re going to get them through just like we didn’t get clarity through yet.

Kyle Lawrence [00:18:11]:
Yeah, it’s an interesting position that the industry is in and One of the things when I was preparing for this is thinking about with Clarity gone and you have this advocacy group and you deal with the Hill and you face a potentially changing Congress in a couple of weeks, with regulation crypto assets named the main path forward with the SEC and the CFTC pushing through regulations, I mean, is that even good enough? Because it’s not binding law technically.

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:18:39]:
Yeah. I mean, there’s always a fear of, you know, whatever sandcastle you build can be, you know, wiped out by the other administration when using rulemaking processes. And so, you know, that’s why actual legislation is ultimately key. And I think for stuff this big, we’re going to have to get some real legislation done. I’m very excited about what the CFTC is doing and what the SEC is doing. Don’t get me wrong, having, having had those conversations of, no, look, like this does comport with that law. And being in those offices and just wanting to pound your head through, you know, the table, it is nice to have an SEC and a government that’s willing to hear those conversations instead of just looking at you as a criminal. And, you know, I think that this next chapter, whatever it is, whoever controls Congress, whoever controls the presidency, is eventually going to have to deal with this.

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:19:36]:
And it’s going to be something where it may be rushed through and it’s not as well thought out as clarity because it’s an emergency, because it’s something where AI has now had agents that have started manipulating stock market trades and commodities trades to the point where we need to actually track what trades have gone through and with who. Because, you know, high-frequency trading and all these other types of possibly malicious bad actors, not to give anybody any ideas. But I think that if we don’t start putting these truly infrastructure plays into place, we’re going to wake up one day and find out something’s broken that we may have to fix in a very fast manner that may not be the ideal manner.

Kyle Lawrence [00:20:20]:
Yeah. Reactionary legislation is never ideal.

Moish Peltz [00:20:26]:
It raises another issue, which is government capacity to govern with these issues being emerging issues. And now with AI, everything that is happening is happening so quickly. And if anything, just accelerating, you know, crypto, if we thought crypto was fast, AI seems like it’s way faster and it’s increasing in speed. And so when you think about, you know, how did our governmental representatives perform over the past, let’s call it 6 years to, to address the rise of, of, of crypto and it, it becoming a widespread consumer product and how it’s regulated and governed. And here we are, you know, 5 or 6 years later with, with no legislation to show for it. And, you know, potentially a sandcastle of, of agency guidance. You know, what, what, what do you think that portends for us on, on the side of AI regulation.

Kyle Lawrence [00:21:31]:
By the way, I love that you were shaking your head as he was asking the question. It’s great.

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:21:35]:
I couldn’t help it. Yeah. Can I call a friend?

Kyle Lawrence [00:21:43]:
Call us.

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:21:43]:
The Stand With, yeah, the Stand With Crypto element will always be here. I think right now we have a really united front. that understands this technology is paramount to human evolution in some sense because no AI should be trusted and no human should be trusted. Therefore, we need something like blockchain. And I think, you know, the same goes with AI. My, you know, fundamental creed right now is that no human can know everything and therefore AI, we need something that will help us kind of advance and connect the dots where, human eyes just simply can’t see it. I don’t know if you guys are familiar with all the revolutions that are going on with math right now and how cryptography may be cracked as of this week. But I think that there is truly a demand on the crypto side, especially, and especially with Stand With Crypto, to provide these resources to the legislature, to the grassroots people, to, you know, politicians who say, you know, my party has one position, but I have another.

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:22:47]:
I want to understand what this can actually do for my constituents instead of just plunging my head in the sand and going, no, no, no, no, no, no. And I think when it comes to what we have to look at for the future, for the betterment of not just this country, but all countries, we need more stable markets. We need more clarity. We need more transparency. And I think as we start getting that and we start moving towards that, because ultimately that’s what AI is doing, it’s providing more clarity, more information for everything. I don’t know if— I’m sure you guys have. You’re both men, right? We’ve all used YouTube University to try to change a light socket or do something kind of crazy that our wives or girlfriends probably look at us a little crazier of like, you sure you’re doing it right? And to be able to use AI in an instance and kind of hopefully if you got the paid version, at least you’re getting better information to actually move forward with that information to make that change and make that change readily. And so I think we’re really converging on this like crypto and, you know, AI track of this is the future and we have to kind of all become united to understand that we don’t like data centers sucking up all the water.

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:23:58]:
That’s a huge problem. We don’t like the noise. We need to build these things in a, you know, way that they’re safe for the environment and safe for people to be around. And same with crypto. We need to have regs and we need to make sure that people aren’t money laundering and terrorist financing because nobody likes that. Like, Come on. And so at this point, I think, believe it or not, more people are on that same page than we are against it. And I know in the middle of election season, that seems really contradictory, uh, and everybody is kind of at everybody’s throats.

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:24:26]:
But, you know, I think one of the reasons— and I have never asked Mason and the team behind Crypto Stand With Crypto— but the reason, you know, our shield is purple is because it is, it is a uniting force. It is an actual— like, this does not care whether you’re red or blue, black or white, any kind of creed, color, or race. this is important to everyone. And so I’m hoping that regardless of what happens in the midterms, regardless of what type of policies come into place, that people start realizing that, oh my God, you know, we need to actually get this done because this technology helps everyone.

Kyle Lawrence [00:24:58]:
One thing that is supported by your purple color, I was playing around with your website before and you actually have a politician score where you can search any member of Congress and see what their favorability score is vis-à-vis crypto. And to your point, it was not divided on party lines. I mean, you had people on both sides that were strongly in favor, some of it. And that is such a breath of fresh air and something, you know, we were talking about a minute ago, you just haven’t seen in this country in years. And I’m curious, can you walk us through the process of how you identify who’s pro? Is it simply a matter of voting record? Do you get into their public statements that they make or appearances at these conferences? I mean, we’ve seen Ritchie Torres, we’ve seen Kirsten Gillibrand, we’ve seen Trump, we’ve seen Bill Cassidy. Like, we’ve seen people on both sides. But how do you arrive at that score? And has any politician called you up and said, hey, wait a second, you misscored me?

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:25:57]:
I can confirm they have. I can’t give the entire kind of, you know, back end. We have a questionnaire. I’ll give it to you guys if I haven’t already about, you know, if you are in the federal race to go get your score, you know what I mean? But some of that is what you’ve said publicly, what you’ve voted on. And then some of that is what you’ve, you know, also unfortunately done against people. And so if you’ve had power and you’ve used it against a crypto industry participant, you know, maybe your score is a little bit lower than it should, and people may not be able to articulate why because they don’t necessarily know your history of what governmental roles you’ve played in that. And so I think at this point, as I’ve kind of been trying to articulate, is the industry participants that we have now, especially all the big names, and nobody’s paying me to say this. This is a— this is a not paid job.

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:26:59]:
I’m doing this for the love of the game, but like the people who are in the industry now, I believe, are true believers. They understand that this technology is actually gonna be beneficial to everyone, not just their consu— their customers and their consumers. And I think that the more people that realize that, the more that those A’s are gonna start popping up in people’s ratings and that they start to understand that, hey, You know, I don’t have to give Visa 3% because all my clients are using stablecoins. And that kind of gives more money back into the community, that gives more money back into small businesses’ pockets for e-commerce. Like I said, X402 and that entire revolution that’s coming is really going to be a game changer for digital products. There’s no more relying on Apple or Amazon for 30% off your book or your, you know, music or whatever it may be. And so when you start kind of democratizing information and democratizing the internet like it was truly meant to be, X402 is based on 402 protocol. So, you know, when you went to a website and you didn’t have a payment gateway, that’s what would pop up.

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:28:09]:
And so it’s kind of this real, I get goosebumps thinking about it, but we’re at this turning point where all of a sudden it does not matter, you know, what you’ve kind of done in the past as long as you make the right decisions in the future. And I’m not saying we’re offering total amnesty. That’s not in my pay grade, but we’re not offering amnesty. I don’t have the power to do that. But I think what’s going to happen is after, unfortunately, the midterms, people are going to see whether they’re small businesses, whether they’re medium-sized enterprises, whether they’re full-fledged publicly traded companies, that this technology will actually help their bottom line. And there’s nothing better than that. I think for at least a capitalistic society, we’re going to start seeing a lot of money put back in people’s pockets.

Moish Peltz [00:28:55]:
I think that’s great. And, you know, we’ve certainly seen the impact of that with accepting crypto for our business and our clients enjoy that service. We’re, you know, the people that know, know, right? If you know, you know. And that’s been great. I guess to that point, you know, what do you think either on the enterprise side or on the consumer side people can do to better articulate the business value, the Main Street value of these technologies and how they can be implemented?

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:29:32]:
That’s a great question. So my favorite, and as far as I know, I haven’t been deep into this, but I haven’t seen anybody, um, really offer this service yet. And as you lawyers know, with escrow, it is a little bit annoying when you have to call and find out where the check is. And so I think real estate is going to be the thing that gets disrupted the most next year. You guys can quote me on it. I’ve been wrong before. But yeah, I think as someone who’s had to wait for checks to come in because the bank is doing the bank thing. And you’re saying we can’t close until this is done.

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:30:10]:
Like, what are you guys doing? Going beep boop boop, you know, and scanning a QR code is just going to be, I think, fundamentally game-changing. I think once the realtors understand that they can get paid faster and that those dollars can then go be spent at the local coffee shop or the local boutique, a lot of the realtors I know are. very attractive women, but, um, that’s what they buy a lot of. Um, you know, stereotypes be stereotypes in the South. Um, I was

Kyle Lawrence [00:30:43]:
gonna say,

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:30:43]:
yeah, yeah. Um, but I think once they see that and once they’re able to, you know, fully utilize that, meaning that they not only have it in their wallet, but then they’re able to, you know, go buy that cup of coffee or go buy that nice fancy dress, um, that’s going to absolutely change the game. I, and, and I may have said this on other podcasts, but I firmly believe that women keep the economy afloat. Everybody’s seen the meme of a TV on the floor and a mattress on the floor and say, you know, guys’ happiness, or this is all men need or something. But I think that once women embrace stablecoins and in all types of businesses, whether it’s real estate or whether it’s, you know, boutiques or coffee shops and things of that nature, that we’re really going to start seeing a true kind of mass adoption of, okay, yeah, let me pay you in stables or let me pay you in, you know, Tether or whatever, you know, it becomes, or, you know, Coinbase’s coins. And I think that’s going to really be what kind of changes the entire game.

Moish Peltz [00:31:44]:
Yeah, I’m still waiting for the, the first national bank to, to enable an attorney escrow fund in stablecoin denominations. I’ve been asking Nobody’s done it yet. If there’s one out there, listener knows about it, let me know. We’ll, we’ll be happy to be the first law firm that, that participates in an escrow transaction to buy real estate with, with stablecoins. We’ve, we’ve tried, but not in a regulated US national bank context. So I think that, I hope you’re right. I hope in 2027 that’s something that we get to do because I, I, see that pain along with you of, hey, the money’s sitting there, we’re happy to send it out, but it’s going to be 24 hours. Like, what?

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:32:28]:
Yeah.

Kyle Lawrence [00:32:29]:
We can all see it. Yeah, right.

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:32:31]:
Yeah. Like, I, I think that’s where people are going to really get excited about this technology is simply just getting paid faster. And I think when I was talking with everybody last year, especially, um, the grassroots kind of effort of, you know, oh, you know, you can send it now and it’s mine. Like, That was the thing that you know was lighting people up, and you know I was telling them about genius and how all these things are really going to change the economy. And I think now, you know, going back to what I wish I could have done different, I wish I would have been able to you know shout from the rooftops of X402 and everybody understands stablecoins and everybody gets your wallets and start playing with them and understanding pay your babysitter, tip your bartender, all these kind of crazy things. That’s one of my pet peeves is when we go to. crypto events and you’re, you’re at a, you know, an event where you can’t tip your bartender in crypto. And I know that’s not necessarily— Nice.

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:33:22]:
Yeah, it’s not necessarily the, the, you know, event organizer or something like that. It’s the catering guys. And I try to sit there and blab about it, but, you know, it is what it is. And I think once it is no longer it is what it is and people are like, yeah, I accept crypto, here’s the QR code, you know what I mean? Um, I think that’s when we realize we’ve made it.

Kyle Lawrence [00:33:41]:
I wrote a blog post about when the Staples Center had its naming rights and it sold to Crypto.com and they paid for it in fiat. I don’t understand. What are we doing? You’re so close.

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:33:54]:
So close, right? Just almost there. Like, I think that’s the biggest frustration. I think that’s one of the reasons I’ve become such an advocate and tried to do the policy thing. Because when I was on the front lines like you guys are, I didn’t feel like work was getting done, to be honest. You know, uh, we’ve made a lot of headway and, and I’m, you guys have done amazing work. Um, but from the big perspo— policy perspective and the big, you know, public perception perspective, it becomes something where they still look at you like you’re a criminal. And I don’t think that’s going to change until people are Like I said, getting paid with stables, and we’re very close. I think 2027 is going to be the year of the stables, and people are going to start understanding how much this can actually change their business, their way of life.

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:34:44]:
No more paying Visa 3%, and, you know, 3%’s inflation right now. So everybody’s looking at ways to cut costs. And as Moisha said, like, the law firm takes it, you guys can figure out how to take it as the coffee shop or the boutique or, you know, whatever. So I think we’re getting closer. I think we’re getting close. Well,

Kyle Lawrence [00:35:03]:
we’re certainly getting closer to the midterms. We have about 3-ish weeks or so. So with the work you do, what do the next 3 weeks— I know, right? What do the next 3 weeks look like for you? And how can guys like us, how can our listeners and viewers participate? How can we help? Just what’s in store for you and how can we help you on this journey?

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:35:22]:
I— that’s such a thoughtful question. I truly appreciate that. You know, they say it takes a village to raise a child, right? And as an uncle, um, I’m always the one who’s fussing at the kids, um, because I don’t want them to end up as screw-ups. And, you know, I give everybody one free bail outta jail. Um, then I’m telling your parents. But, um, you know, from that kind of perspective, we’re all there. Right. Like, we all need to be the village.

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:35:51]:
And if you’ve been in this industry for any time, You can talk to your neighbor, you can talk to— I want to say your ex-wife, but you can talk to anybody you can about how complicated this industry is, but how important this industry is. And it’s not something where it’s red or blue or anything like that. It is truly purple because it’s going to affect everybody. It’s going to affect everybody in their pocketbook, as my mother would say, and it’s going to affect everybody on Wall Street. And when Wall Street catches a cold, we all catch a cold. And so regardless of whether you think everything is overinflated or AI is, you know, hyped up, we can add a lot of transparency with this technology. And you guys know that. Everybody knows that who’s been dealing with this industry.

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:36:35]:
And so I really need as many people on the ground to talk to the decision makers, to talk to the people who are running, to talk to the people who, you know, are unfortunately possibly against crypto and say, let me have a private conversation with you. Like, masks off. Let me, let me actually talk to you as a person, you know, not try to score any political points. That’s where a lot of my groundwork has been done. It’s not necessarily been in the cool spotlight hanging out with you guys. It’s been in the back rooms trying to get a lot of our anti-crypto people to shut up. Um, and people won’t know the work I’ve done until later. Unfortunately, and I think for right now that is kind of the bigger wins than the public wins.

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:37:21]:
Everybody likes seeing the signs, everybody likes seeing the cool t-shirts, or I got a hat that I wear that says Clarity across it. But I think when you’re able to convert one person from a non-believer to a blockchain believer and say, hey, this technology can actually benefit me, that’s where we win, guys. Like, whether it’s, you know, a politician, whether it’s your neighbor, whether it’s whoever, we’ve gotta come together and say, hey, this technology’s not about me or you or anybody. It’s about everyone. And I think that, that argument’s won more of the times than it’s lost.

Kyle Lawrence [00:37:53]:
Yeah, I hope so. I, I find, I struggle with those kinds of arguments when facing the electorate en masse. But I mean, we’re, we’re on board and we agree with you. We, we think it’s important to Change the narrative about all the negative things. I mean, negative, negative things are always going to get more attention. The FTXs, the, you know, the Binance stuff, all of that is just going to be front of mind for everybody. They’re not going to know the granular detail. I mean, even now, I mentioned to people the work we’re doing and they’re like, oh, you guys are still doing crypto work? It’s like, crypto’s not gone just because you’re not seeing it everywhere.

Kyle Lawrence [00:38:26]:
That’s not how it works. Right. So, so we’re right there in the foxhole with you, brother, and we appreciate all the work you do. And, you know, I just hope you, you know, keep it up. And I hope the midterms go the way that is favorable for us.

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:38:39]:
I think if we can see a lot more A’s on that scoreboard, then I’ll be happy. I think that ultimately we need more champions who have the power to make these regulations and pass these laws, and people who understand that this is important. So I appreciate everything you guys have done. I appreciate being able to come on here. and advocate. But I also, like all your listeners out there, I need you to, I need you to do it, man. I know it sucks. I know it’s difficult, but, you know, talk to the people who, oh, Bitcoin’s not at $120,000 now.

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:39:13]:
You know, how’s your crypto portfolio? Explain to them that, you know, how long does it take you to get your paycheck? You know, how long does it take to, you know, do whatever kind of thing in their business? Because every business has a hiccup that blockchain could solve. And I think the more people understand that this is simply technology and we’re just advocating for better technology, it makes it much easier to swallow than just being crypto bros.

Kyle Lawrence [00:39:38]:
It’s a great answer and we appreciate you coming by. Any final thoughts you want to share with the group before we let you keep fighting the good fight?

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:39:45]:
I appreciate it, guys. I think I’ve spouted off enough. You can tell as a former lawyer by how many minutes I spoke, but You know,

Kyle Lawrence [00:39:53]:
we’re billing

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:39:54]:
you for the

Kyle Lawrence [00:39:54]:
call. Don’t, don’t you worry. I knew there was a catch.

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:39:58]:
But, uh, yeah, no, thank you for having me. I look forward to catching you on a panel again. And, uh, next year is going to be pretty wild. So learn about x402, learn about everything you can in stables. If you’re not happy with your job now, there’s going to be a job in the crypto world for you. So go search for it.

Kyle Lawrence [00:40:16]:
Sounds good. We will drop links to Stand With Crypto down in our show notes. John Dunsmoor, the South Carolina president for Stand With Crypto. Thank you so much for coming by. It’s really good to see you, my friend.

Moish Peltz [00:40:26]:
Good to see you too. Thank you.

Jonathan C. Dunsmoor [00:40:28]:
Thank you guys. Thank you for everything.

Kyle Lawrence [00:40:30]:
Anytime.

Moish Peltz [00:40:31]:
Take care.