In this episode, Kyle and Moish talk with Jennie Levin, the Chief Legal and Operating Officer of the Algorand Foundation, about the evolving regulatory climate that is reshaping tokenization, stablecoins, and institutional adoption. Jennie explains how Algorand’s architecture supports real-world assets and global payments, why the foundation is re-embracing the U.S. market, and how builders can navigate uncertainty. She also shares how her former life as a federal prosecutor informs her approach to compliance, risk, and responsible growth in crypto.

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Chapters:

00:00 Welcome to Block and Order
03:46 Introducing Jennie Levin, CLO & COO of Algorand Foundation
04:20 — What Algorand Does Differently as a Blockchain
06:00 — Algorand Standard Assets, Token Design & Built-In Compliance
08:11 — Tokenization of Real-World Assets: Legal & Regulatory Challenges
10:07 — The Future of Tokenized Stocks, Stablecoins & 24/7 Markets
12:27 — The GENIUS Act, Stablecoins & Algorand’s U.S. Strategy
15:19 — FDIC, Regulatory Shifts & What’s Been Holding Blockchain Back
19:59 — Jennie Levin’s Background as a Federal Prosecutor (AUSA)
23:21 — From DraftKings to Crypto: Entering the Blockchain Industry
27:02 — Fraud, Scams & Misconceptions About Crypto
30:32 — Privacy vs. Compliance: KYC, Sanctions & Zero-Knowledge Proofs
35:27 — Permissionless Blockchains, Financial Privacy & Institutions
42:10 — Algorand’s Renewed Focus on the United States
45:29 — Regulatory Uncertainty, SEC Guidance & Market Structure Law
50:59 — Algorand–Wirex Partnership & USDC Payments
52:17 — Final Thoughts, Disclaimers & Closing Remarks

 

Watch or listen to the podcast here:

   

Transcript:

**This transcript has been prepared automatically by AI and may contain inaccuracies**

Jennie Levin [00:00:00]:
I think it’s a huge step in the right direction and something that the crypto community and blockchain community have been fighting for for a long time. And these small wins stack up and they are meaningful.

Kyle Lawrence [00:00:20]:
Welcome to Block and Order, your one stop legal shop for all things digital assets. I’m your host, Kyle Lawrence and with me as always, he’s the sensei to my retired revolutionary, Mr. Moish Peltz.

Moish Peltz [00:00:32]:
Hey Kyle. I do enjoy being a sensei, so appreciate that.

Kyle Lawrence [00:00:37]:
Bringing it all back to one battle after another, which I can’t stop thinking about, having watched it over Thanksgiving breaks.

Moish Peltz [00:00:43]:
I was thinking more like Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles style sensei, but one battle after another is a very good.

Kyle Lawrence [00:00:51]:
Right. I mean, I guess you could be the splinter to my Raphael or whichever one I want to be, I suppose. Yeah, I mean we, the world is our oyster bush. Well, the very special episode coming after the holiday, we have Jenny Levin. Jenny is, was an awesome guest and she is the chief legal and operating officer for Algorand foundation which does some really cutting edge and interesting things in the space. What do you think of our conversation with her?

Moish Peltz [00:01:15]:
I thought our conversation was very fascinating. Hearing from a CLO of a layer 1 blockchain amidst all the regulatory changes and you know, things coming and going is just really fascinating to hear her perspective. Her background is just ultra impressive coming from, you know, public service and moving into the in house role. And so there’s a lot to talk about. I thought it was a really fascinating conversation.

Kyle Lawrence [00:01:44]:
I couldn’t have said it better. You even stole my thunder a little bit because we have on the show often, you know, other attorneys, people on the regulation side, but we don’t always have people who are actually working on these chains themselves. And to hear her experience and how her company is responding to the Genius act and what regulations they’re looking forward to and how these real world events impact their business on a day to day granular level. I don’t think we’ve really seen that on the show before. And yeah, you’re right. I thought she was fantastic. Great perspective.

Moish Peltz [00:02:16]:
Yeah. And you really get a flavor for just how much a layer one has to deal with because there’s just so much activity that could possibly happen from fully decentralized to centralized activity to regulated to not. And you have to be an advocate and evangelist and really a risk mitigator for all of that. So. Yeah, right.

Kyle Lawrence [00:02:38]:
And you have to be nimble. Could you imagine if like the rules for law firms just changed every couple of months?

Moish Peltz [00:02:44]:
It would be insane.

Kyle Lawrence [00:02:45]:
I don’t know how. I don’t know how she could sleep at night.

Moish Peltz [00:02:47]:
Here’s the new rulebook for Q2.

Kyle Lawrence [00:02:50]:
It goes into effect tomorrow, right? Yeah, exactly. All right, well, now that I’m. Now that I’m scared about what comes next, let’s turn it over to Jenny Levin.

Moish Peltz [00:03:00]:
And Kyle, there’s one other thing I want to just throw in here, which is that we’re now doing a weekly newsletter on LinkedIn, the Block and Order weekly docket, where we’re posting the most interesting things that we find over the course of the week. Some of those topics might make them into your next Block and Order episode or they might not. You better read to find out.

Kyle Lawrence [00:03:20]:
You know, I, I think. I think with what we just went through, you know, it would be a good idea. So WTF with Marc Maron is now over. Barack Obama was his last guest and what he used to do was he would just kind of drop like the middle of the conversation and boom, that’s. That’s where it starts. It was almost before the interest. I think we should pick up the mantle now. Block and Order is going to do that and we should just start the thing right here.

Kyle Lawrence [00:03:41]:
So here we go.

Moish Peltz [00:03:41]:
We already have the record. That was it. We recorded the episode, right?

Kyle Lawrence [00:03:44]:
We already did it. We’re already set. We’re already set.

Jennie Levin [00:03:46]:
That was fabulous, wasn’t it?

Kyle Lawrence [00:03:47]:
I love it. WTF with Block and Order starring Moish and Jenny 11. This is great. I. I love it.

Kyle Lawrence [00:03:55]:
Well, in all seriousness, joining us on Block and Order is the fabled Jenny Levin, chief operating and legal officer at Algorand Foundation. Jenny, thank you so much for joining us.

Jennie Levin [00:04:05]:
Thank you guys so much for having me. I was very excited when I got the invitation.

Kyle Lawrence [00:04:10]:
We, we were certainly excited to have you and Algorand foundation is, is certainly an impressive company. Can you give us a quick kind of rundown of what you guys are up to in the space?

Jennie Levin [00:04:20]:
Yeah, absolutely. I think that Algorand is a often forgotten gem. We were one of the OG Blockchains and we were born in the usa and we have a lot of unique features. We’re really focused on real world assets and payments and tokenization, supporting financial institutions and institutions. But I think there’s a couple of really cool things about Algorand that our listeners should know about if they don’t already. Because I get excited about it.

Kyle Lawrence [00:04:54]:
I can tell. I love it.

Jennie Levin [00:04:55]:
This is great. All right, so first of all, we have instant banality, right? I mean, how many other Chains can say that, which means that like there’s no possibility for forking. It reduces the chance for exploits exponentially. Right? I mean literally like 2.8 seconds to finalize transactions and we have like 10,000 transactions per second. I mean it’s very, very, very fast, right? So that makes an incredibly.

Jennie Levin [00:05:24]:
User friendly blockchain and it really supports like. I think that’s a core differentiator that I get excited about. And then, you know, it’s, it’s a pure proof of stake blockchain with verifiable random function. Which means that again, stakers are chosen at random. I mean every algo has the same probability of being chosen. The more algos you have, the more likelihood that you’ll get picked. But again, there’s really no chance for exploits or abuse because nobody knows who’s chosen as the validator. So I think that’s really cool.

Jennie Levin [00:06:00]:
Right? And then the last thing I will mention, guys, because we’re going to get into talking about regulation, I think is that we have. Algorand has these things called Algorand standard assets and you can actually, it’s like built into the protocol, you can basically like pick and choose and design your own tokenized asset and with features like clawback and freeze. I mean that’s really cool.

Kyle Lawrence [00:06:23]:
I think that is very cool. I haven’t seen anybody else doing anything like that. That’s pretty neat.

Moish Peltz [00:06:29]:
I think that’s one of the coolest thing about being a lawyer in the space is you get to geek out about the technology in addition to all the legal geeking out. So it’s.

Jennie Levin [00:06:36]:
And I cannot, I’m not going to let my friends know outside of the crypto friends I have about this podcast because they’re going to listen to it and they’re like, Jenny, no, there’s not.

Moish Peltz [00:06:47]:
Going to be an idea what you’re saying. That’s why I says I have no idea you’re talking about.

Kyle Lawrence [00:06:50]:
I mean, my friends don’t like me anyway because all I talk about is this stuff. But they like to tease me when the numbers go down. But when the number goes up, it’s, you know, we should do, we should, we should flash that meme that was going around last week, which is when Bitcoin was 125,000 people like, oh man, I wish I could buy it if it was back at 80 again. And then it drops to 80. And I was like, I’m not buying that. It’s down to 80. So it’s, it’s like that.

Jennie Levin [00:07:12]:
Or they’re like it’s still super expensive. You know, I buy it when it comes back down to remember when it was like $500.

Kyle Lawrence [00:07:19]:
I mean houses are pretty expensive when we buy those.

Moish Peltz [00:07:23]:
Yeah.

Jennie Levin [00:07:23]:
And then we have to deal with all the repairs.

Kyle Lawrence [00:07:25]:
Exactly. I don’t have to maintain my Bitcoin, do I?

Moish Peltz [00:07:28]:
Right.

Jennie Levin [00:07:30]:
Sorry.

Kyle Lawrence [00:07:31]:
We got sidetracked.

Jennie Levin [00:07:33]:
I feel like that’s going to happen a lot during this.

Kyle Lawrence [00:07:35]:
As it should. I wish more guests were open to that.

Moish Peltz [00:07:38]:
Well, I was going to ask. There was an article, I don’t know if you’ve seen this in the Economist that came out I think yesterday where Larry Fink of blackrock was talking very excitedly about tokenization as this next frontier. Of all the things that you just spoke about. Right. Things that Algorand and many other blockchains enable, which is tokenizing real world assets and incorporating all these regulatory ideas. I’m curious how you’re thinking about tokenization from a legal regulatory perspective and the kinds of things you might be working on to help enable that both in the US and around the world.

Jennie Levin [00:08:11]:
It’s a tough question because there’s no really one size fits all answer because it depends on what assets we’re tokenizing. Are we tokenizing treasury bills? Are we tokenizing real estate? Are we tokenizing, you know, Kelshi and prediction contracts? Because they’re all going to have different regulatory standards around them. So I think, you know, as a layer one blockchain, our goal is to support the developers and support the builders. So you know, we want to. And as I mentioned, right. Our blockchain is really built already within the protocol to enable differing regulatory standards, which is really helpful when you’re trying to build on chain and you have to bob and weave with the regulatory environment because you can pick and choose and restructure things right at the protocol level. I think what we’re trying to do is we’re trying to build a system and support our developers and builders by preparing for the most stringent regulations, but being able to triage and implement less stringent regulations when necessary. So, you know, we support, you know, our like various tokenized T bills on our chain, but we also support tokenized real estate.

Jennie Levin [00:09:32]:
And so, you know, I think that varies. It’s a terrible answer, but it’s the best answer I think.

Kyle Lawrence [00:09:39]:
I think it’s, if anything it’s one of the more honest answers because when I talk to people about tokenization it’s very pie in the sky and we can do anything and everything we want and it’s all going to be this uniform application of the tech and. And you nailed it. It not. It’s going to look different whether it’s. You mentioned Kalshi. Kalshi tokenizing its contracts. Tokenized real estate is the one you hear a lot of and we saw a couple weeks ago there are going to be tokenized real world stocks which is like to me a perfect example of like the main benefit of what tokenization can do without taking it in a vacuum. Where do you see the next evolution of tokenization? If we all had our druthers, what would it look like in 2026?

Jennie Levin [00:10:20]:
You know, I think it would be obviously with stablecoins. I think that’s going to be huge in 2026 and really making on chain payments much more streamlined and accepted. If we can figure out international streamlined regulations. Right.

Jennie Levin [00:10:39]:
Because we want to have cross border payments and if we have vastly different regulatory schemes in the US versus abroad, that doesn’t really work. But I. So I think stablecoins is, is going to be a huge one. Tokenization in that sense. I think, you know, we have an Algorand lofty AI which does tokenize real estate. I think that’s going to continue to be big. Listen, if Kelsey takes off and prediction markets become tokenized then I mean I think that’s going to be a game changer, right? We’re going to see tokenized stocks like traditional equity stocks and being able to buy and sell them online with you know, instant finality and settlement and 24. 7 trading.

Jennie Levin [00:11:22]:
I mean.

Jennie Levin [00:11:24]:
My song right now, right? I know, right? Like this is like, this is like putting a big plate of french fries in front of me, right? Like I get so excited about that. But I. So I think that you know, there’s lots of different areas but we got to, we got to figure out the regulatory scheme that’s going to, that’s going to accompany them.

Kyle Lawrence [00:11:45]:
Right?

Moish Peltz [00:11:46]:
Well, so we have, I mean in the US we have the genius act, right? And so there’s stablecoin which is probably now the biggest proven use case of crypto aside from crypto itself. We have something and we’re still kind of seeing how that’s coming down the pipeline. I mean beyond that, what’s. What’s the role, you know, as you said of like, you know, your role in a layer one blockchain? Are you enabling that directly from a policy regulatory perspective or is your role really to help developers and to, to be involved in the policy front and kind of indirectly push the boundaries there? Like how do you See, that role. Has that role evolved, you know, over the. Over the course of perhaps the last year and a half from where it would have been two years ago. Yeah.

Jennie Levin [00:12:27]:
So, you know, I’ve only been at Algorand for about seven months. And when Gensler was in power, Algorand, you know, was very reticent to touch the U.S. i think they were. They were very conservative, understandably. And now things have changed because the administration has changed and the people in power at the SEC has changed and the regulatory environment has changed. And so we are much more willing and excited about engaging with, you know, us developers, us consumers. You know, we’re going to be moving back to the US.

Jennie Levin [00:13:08]:
So I think definitely our position has changed, which means I think my role as clo, you know, if I was here previously, would have been different than it is now.

Jennie Levin [00:13:19]:
My role is twofold. Right. It is to support developers and help them, you know, work through regulatory issues, policy issues. Advocate on behalf of people who are building on our blockchain. And it’s also to try to navigate the regulatory issues that the foundation faces. Right. Token issuance, secondary market sales, all of it’s. You know, it’s not clear whether it’s like decentralized finance or on centralized exchanges, how can we interact with our developers, you know, what crosses the line, what can we say and what can’t we say about Algos and what we’re doing and what we’re building?

Jennie Levin [00:13:57]:
So, you know, there is. And when we’re very active. Right. You know, we’re members of the Blockchain association, and we also do a lot of our own policy work.

Jennie Levin [00:14:10]:
I don’t think it behooves any blockchain company, whether it’s a L1 or otherwise, to be in a defensive posture. I think it’s important to be proactive and try to help shape regulation. But if we’re being honest, right. Like, I mean, is Jenny Levin gonna really, like, you know, change the market structure legislation? Probably not, but I can play a small maybe. Right?

Moish Peltz [00:14:35]:
Maybe. I think through the influence through these policy organizations, I think there is a voice. I mean, even.

Kyle Lawrence [00:14:41]:
Yeah.

Moish Peltz [00:14:41]:
You know, so. So, I mean, there’s that. Right. I certainly. I think the legislation that was passed was in large part due to some of the policy organizations. Right.

Jennie Levin [00:14:49]:
Yes.

Moish Peltz [00:14:50]:
It takes.

Jennie Levin [00:14:50]:
It takes a village. So I think it’s important to play your part and be a part of the larger voice, the collective voice. But I think that’s why it’s so important that everybody comes together and we might not all be aligned in terms of every single thing we want. But we have to have like our north and we have to try to work together to get the best outcome we can. And so Algorand is playing a large role in that sense and we’re excited about it.

Kyle Lawrence [00:15:19]:
Yeah, that’s a great point. And you’re definitely right in that the current regulations.

Kyle Lawrence [00:15:24]:
It’S not like a game changing thing, I’m about to say. But yes, the regulatory environment is widely improved over where it was and we’ve seen firsthand that the policymakers in D.C. are more welcoming of people like you and hearing your thoughts and hearing your comments. And while we don’t all agree necessarily on how we get there, we do all have the same end goal in mind. And we did notice that I think it came out yesterday that the FDIC announced they will be releasing their first batch of regulations this month. Really curious to see, you know, what those look like. What’s been a hindrance to Algorand thus far since its inception. Since you’ve been involved, what is something that you haven’t been able to do that hopefully can be addressed vis a vis these new regulations that are hopefully coming out in the holiday season?

Jennie Levin [00:16:14]:
I mean for stable, for. Regarding stablecoins.

Jennie Levin [00:16:19]:
I mean, I guess it’s really sort of like make clear who you’re regulating. Right. Are you regulating the issuer? Are you regulating, you know, a platform, a foundation, like a blockchain like Algorand? Right. And, and tailor the regulations appropriately to the extent there are any for a, you know, provider like Algorand, an infrastructure provider and I think, you know, make sure that the regulations are consistent across all different stablecoins and all different chains.

Jennie Levin [00:16:55]:
I think, you know, to me though, I go back to it’s. And again, it’s not necessarily what we’re going to see in this set of proposed regulations. It’s that no matter what they are, if we really want stablecoins to take off and like we do, you know, we want USDC on Algorand to be mainstream because it really can revolutionize payments as we’ve seen and we’ll continue to see. We really have to get alignment across the world. Right. We have to get alignment with regulations in other jurisdictions as well.

Kyle Lawrence [00:17:30]:
Yeah, it’s a great point. It’s something that I bring up a lot on the show as an emergers and acquisitions attorney. And I have had these situations where you have one contract party is on the west coast and the other one is in France and they initiate a wire at 3 o’ clock on Friday afternoon. And then talk about not sleeping. I won’t sleep. I’m just a really grumpy, sour, awful, grouchy person. Because a lot can happen in those 72 hours and I can definitely see that.

Jennie Levin [00:17:55]:
The grumpy, grouchy person.

Kyle Lawrence [00:17:57]:
Yeah, exactly. We’ll see. All this gray.

Kyle Lawrence [00:18:02]:
It happens sometimes. All right, you know, I’ll, I’ll do a lap and I’ll come back upset. But that’s, it’s just such an obvious way to improve the way things have been done. And once we get past a lot of the. Well, that’s not, that’s not how it’s done. You know, young feller, once we get past all that, we can improve upon these systems that are in dire need of improvement. And what’s funny is that the U.S. you know, we’re well positioned.

Kyle Lawrence [00:18:24]:
You know, it’s not as, it’s not as dire for us as it is for some of these other countries where they don’t have secure banking systems. They don’t have a place to put the money that they make through whatever they sell at their store. So I think you guys are really at the cutting edge. And I don’t say that to blow smoke because you’re our guest, but it’s, it’s really a wonderful tech and I think you guys are doing wonderful things with it.

Moish Peltz [00:18:46]:
That’s awesome.

Jennie Levin [00:18:46]:
Well, I appreciate it. And listen, I think the US Regulators are working to, you know, streamline these, these high level principles across, across the different countries, like to avoid this patchwork that we’re living in. But, you know, you know, you asked me like, what do I want to see? It’s more what do I want to see across our borders? Because as you said, you know, we are very big on payments and identity. We have something called his pay. We’ve got programs, you know, where we help, you know, refugees in Syria and in Afghanistan with payments. You know, we have programs that, for women in India who don’t have access to bank accounts, help them get, you know, with identity to get bank accounts and keeping it on chain. So I think that, you know, there are real world use cases that are not just humanitarian because, I mean, there’s commercial aspects to them too. Right.

Jennie Levin [00:19:43]:
But they affect real lives and real people. And if we, if we don’t, if we don’t get a more streamlined approach.

Jennie Levin [00:19:54]:
We’Re not going to be able to really see blockchain technology utilized to the full extent that it can be.

Moish Peltz [00:19:59]:
Yeah, I think it’s right to call out the public sector And I know you have a public sector background and maybe you could speak a little bit about what it was like being in AUSA and then how you parlayed that into the blockchain industry, which maybe doesn’t seem like a natural transition, but I’m curious how you think about it.

Jennie Levin [00:20:23]:
Yes, I am anything but predictable.

Kyle Lawrence [00:20:28]:
Good things.

Jennie Levin [00:20:30]:
So I loved being in AUSA, guys. I was a trial attorney at the U.S. attorney’s office for over 10 years in Chicago. So in the Northern District of Illinois, I prosecuted everything from, you know, large scale drug trafficking and narcotics, you know, cases, racketeering cases, to public corruption, organized crime.

Jennie Levin [00:20:51]:
Child exploitation, human trafficking, you know, financial crimes. It ran the gamut. And I think I learned, you know, when you’re at the U.S. attorney’s office, right, you take your cases, you’re working with like the FBI, dea, atf, and you take them from inception and you get to investigate them. So there are years long investigations, right, where you really have to like delve into. It’s a cat and mouse game of what is this company doing behind the scenes and how are they committing this fraud? And then you get to try the cases in front of a jury and you get to see it all the way through to arguing before whatever appellate circuit you’re operating in. And so I.

Jennie Levin [00:21:37]:
What I loved about it is you have to take these complex legal principles and distill it down and explain it to the, you know, average Jane and Joe, which is really relatable when you’re, we’re talking about crypto because if you want to be able to explain things to people, you can’t be using, you know, technical jargon, just like you can’t be using legal jargon. So I think I like the idea of being able to, again, you know, use, use those skills, albeit in a different way, and then also be able to take, you know, ex. Like extract these legal principles and apply them in novel situations. Being AUSA was really hard, right? And obviously the stakes were really high. People’s freedom. And you know, there, it wasn’t always black and white and it’s not like sitting and reviewing, sorry, mergers and acquisitions and contracts like, hey.

Kyle Lawrence [00:22:31]:
I’ll complain about that.

Jennie Levin [00:22:35]:
So, you know, it was like tough. You had to make judgment calls, right? It was uncertain and you had to go with your gut sometimes. And the same thing in the crypto space, right? Like we don’t, we’re operating in a lot of uncertainty and you have to use your best judgment and you have to, you know, try to predict the outcome and what the risks are and weigh them. And it’s very similar, albeit in a different context. You know, the stakes are not as high as they were when I was at the U.S. attorney’s office, and how did I transition? So when I was ready to leave, because I had had, like I said, been there for over 10 years, I am friendly with the founders of a company called DraftKings. And so I. And the Supreme Court had just overturned paspa.

Jennie Levin [00:23:21]:
And so, you know, there was some regulatory uncertainty there, and I jumped ship and I went to DraftKings and helped navigate that regulatory uncertainty and roll out sportsbook and Casin casino and daily fantasy sports in all the different jurisdictions. And then one of the founders was very into crypto. And so I got to build their NFT marketplace from the ground up, which was amazing. And that was really my first forte into crypto, besides buying bitcoin a long time ago. And one thing led to another, and here I am because of the unique challenges that we see every day, which is. I think it drives me crazy and it’s so stressful at times, but it is also so much fun.

Kyle Lawrence [00:24:07]:
It’s. It’s.

Moish Peltz [00:24:08]:
That’s so interesting. And just to follow up, I’m just curious, like, you know, what. What about, you know, bitcoin at the time got you interested? I mean, like, around when was that? And, like, what made you think, oh, this is. This is interesting, where so many people were like, ah, that’s too scary. I don’t want to do that.

Jennie Levin [00:24:25]:
The short answer is it was like, 2014.

Jennie Levin [00:24:29]:
And it was my brother, he was like, you know, into bitcoin when it was like, I don’t know, five cents or something. And he was like, jenny, you gotta. You gotta. You gotta buy this. And I was like, I don’t know. And I, like, waited a long time, right? I mean, I wasn’t jumping at it that early, but, you know, I trust him and he’s like my best friend, and he was, like, relentless. And so he got me into it and was always like, listen, crypto’s the future. And I’m like, you’re a weirdo.

Jennie Levin [00:24:56]:
No. And then it just. He was not wrong.

Kyle Lawrence [00:25:00]:
Wow.

Moish Peltz [00:25:01]:
It’s a good brother. Okay, great.

Jennie Levin [00:25:05]:
Yes.

Kyle Lawrence [00:25:05]:
That’s amazing. Kind of quick side note, over the weekend, it being Thanksgiving, and I saw one of my friends who was up from Anguilla, of all places, and I hadn’t seen him in a while, and he actually showed me an email that he sent me in 2010 about how Bitcoin was the future. And we all needed to invest in it. But that was back when you couldn’t just buy it. You had to send money to some random guy who would buy it for you and host it. And even, even now that.

Moish Peltz [00:25:29]:
A brown bag on the corner.

Kyle Lawrence [00:25:31]:
Yeah. I have to say, you know, are these, are these strawberries fresh? I only have the freshest strawberries. Like one of those CIA things.

Jennie Levin [00:25:38]:
But yeah. Right. And that’s where my like prosecutor hat goes on. And I’m like, exactly.

Kyle Lawrence [00:25:45]:
When, when you were in ausa, it’s interesting that you did make the pivot and now you work for, for Algorand. Because I would think with your experience, when you only see the bad people, the ne’ er do wells, it’s not like you see a mix of both. It’s amazing that you didn’t fall into that bucket of. Well, all these people are terrible. Like you mentioned Gensler before, like how he just viewed everybody as some sort of financial criminal or tort fees or whatever you want to call it. And you didn’t do that. Maybe it’s from your prior experience with bitcoin, but it’s really interesting that you kind of saw the light even through your profession.

Jennie Levin [00:26:23]:
That’s.

Kyle Lawrence [00:26:23]:
I mean, that’s great. I wish more people were like. Because I talked to a lot of people who are in your shoes and they said crypto is a scam. We shouldn’t buy it because the only experience they have with it is people who are stealing money or using it for bad purposes.

Jennie Levin [00:26:36]:
Yeah. You know, I think it took me a while when I left the U.S. attorney’s office to become a good in house lawyer, to really understand that you have to balance the risk and reward and to learn how to serve my stakeholders, you know, the business. Because it’s very different than being a prosecutor. And you’re right. You have to shift your entire mindset.

Jennie Levin [00:27:02]:
I think there’s always been a part of me though, that enjoys the entrepreneurial spirit and the business aspect of things. And so I am probably more skeptical than a lot of GCs or people in the space just because I have seen the bad side of humanity. And it’s still like, it still really bothers me. There’s so much fraud that happens in the crypto sphere. Right. Like, but again, we’re not. It’s not because of crypto necessarily. It’s because you have bad actors that are going to exploit whatever industry they possibly can.

Jennie Levin [00:27:42]:
Right. Which is why you have to be careful no matter what. And you know, that’s. It still bothers Me to no end that that happens. But again, it’s not because of blockchain technology.

Kyle Lawrence [00:27:52]:
Right? Yeah. Moish and I, we, you know, kind of bemoan this a lot. I mean, I get a daily phone call from somebody who was the victim of a pig butchering scam or some sort of scam or others. And often when I speak with these people, it’s, crypto is a scam. Why can’t the government do anything? And it’s hard. You know, you want to be sympathetic, you don’t want to be a jerk about it, but it’s like, well, that’s not the crypto. Like, you kind of gave money to somebody who contacted you on Telegram. That’s not crypto.

Kyle Lawrence [00:28:17]:
That’s just an unfortunate scenario.

Kyle Lawrence [00:28:22]:
When it’s.

Jennie Levin [00:28:22]:
Like, happens to the elderly.

Kyle Lawrence [00:28:24]:
You know, it’s really sad. Yeah, it really is. But the other one that comes up often is somebody had an account on Kraken or one of the exchanges, and somebody they don’t know sent them, sent crypto to their wallet and oops, that person is on the OFAC list. And so now you’re on the OFAC list and then your, your entire wallet gets frozen. You can’t do anything about it. We’ve had a few of those too. So it’s, you know, it’s interesting to see that we talked about this on a prior episode. You want to nip all that in the bud, but you don’t want to have such a, just an aggressive take on it that you harm good actors.

Kyle Lawrence [00:29:01]:
You know, people who are, I’m just keeping, keeping money on crack and I’m not doing anything wrong. Why do I have to bear the, you know, face the penalties? Because you can’t find these people in Burma or wherever it is that they’re at.

Jennie Levin [00:29:11]:
Yeah, it’s such a hard balance, right? Yeah. Like, I don’t think, though. I think when it comes to sanctions, you know, people have, have very strong views on KYC and.

Jennie Levin [00:29:28]:
KYB and screening for sanctions. I just think that that’s one area. Right. That is like, I don’t ever see our government, like, being lenient when it comes to not screening for bad actors when it comes to national security. Right. And also with, with AML screening, I mean, albeit, like, not everybody’s subject to the bank secrecy act, and I totally get that, but everybody has to comply with sanctions and it’s strict liability. And I don’t think that, you know, the crypto community is, is very vocal and they’ve made a lot of progress. But I just think when it comes to like national security crypto community, like I, you know, I just, whether or not, whether or not it’s the always the right call, I just think that like you’re fighting such an uphill battle to battle like the idea that we’re going to lax our national security standards because for, you know, for privacy rights.

Moish Peltz [00:30:32]:
Yeah, but there is, there is this, I think pretty significant debate happening right between this permissionless access and blockchain enabling that with then enabling, you know, institutional and government participants on your, on your blockchain as against all the privacy implications that go along with that. And you know, just the idea that if you’re an ordinary user, you do want some sense of privacy in your financial transactions, in your financial life, even if that life is now happening on a blockchain. And indeed we’re seeing other layer ones like Vitalik Buterin just announced they’re doing a lot of big endeavor around trying to figure out how to enable privacy transactions on the Ethereum public blockchain. So I’m wondering just to further expand this balance between permissionlessness and compliance and then on chain identity and privacy.

Moish Peltz [00:31:24]:
I know that that’s probably a very large question which might cause anyone’s brain to freeze, but how do you focus on that issue and balance those different levers across, you know, the multiple stakeholders that you have?

Jennie Levin [00:31:40]:
I mean I think like zero knowledge proofs. Right. Merkle trees. I think, you know, there are ways to verify identity while also maintaining, you know, a semblance of privacy. If we can have a standardized kyc, meaning if we have like you should have to do it every single time with different actors and different players, you know, sharing your identity, sharing your documents. Right. But there’s a way to.

Jennie Levin [00:32:05]:
Implement a, like a.

Jennie Levin [00:32:08]:
A one time check. Right. Then we can keep the results on chain and, and you know, we can, we can make it, you know, triaged. So like sure, because not everybody wants to comply with, you know, the Bank Secrecy act and all of the AML request requirements. Right. But like different tiers that you can utilize.

Jennie Levin [00:32:27]:
That, you know, you go through this once it’s kept securely on chain and you don’t have to constantly be doing this every time you want to sell your crypto or you know, use an off ramp.

Jennie Levin [00:32:41]:
Participate in.

Jennie Levin [00:32:44]:
A crypto product. Right. Or a blockchain product. So I think there are ways to do it. And in terms of what’s the right balance? I mean, I don’t know. Moshe, what do you think?

Moish Peltz [00:32:56]:
No, I don’t, I don’t know there’s an answer as to the right balance.

Moish Peltz [00:33:00]:
I mean, I think that’s the problem. Right. Is there, there’s probably not a right answer for one blockchain or for one person. I think it’s going to vary across that. So I think, I think you’re right. You have to rely on the technology to say, okay, some of these things are things we can solve with zero knowledge proofs. Some of these things we can solve with legislation that sets even, you know, balances of like our baselines or standards. You can try and extend those so that the standard in the US is maybe compatible with the standard in Europe or other jurisdictions, which it may or may not be.

Moish Peltz [00:33:34]:
I think it’s a huge problem though. I think, I think that’s one of the big concerns I have about cryptocurrency being widely adopted on public blockchains in a permissionless way is the idea is if I’m a user, I’m now putting my entire financial history on a public blockchain. That that’s an existential problem if we don’t solve that. Right. So.

Moish Peltz [00:33:54]:
Yeah, I mean, I think it’s a mix of policy and technology and probably changing the way we use blockchains to some degree. And then, and then also relying on central. I mean, there’s, there’s good uses. Right. Of. I don’t think it’s just like it has to be decentralized or centralized. I think there’s good kind of intermediate go betweens where you’re using some centralized servers or centralized services for some types of transactions and you’re relying on public blockchains for others. So I mean, that’s, that’s how I think about it.

Moish Peltz [00:34:23]:
But it’s not a solution.

Jennie Levin [00:34:27]:
No, but I mean, I appreciate that you’ve given it a lot of thought.

Kyle Lawrence [00:34:33]:
That’s a very lawyer answer, though. There’s no right answer. There’s only a best answer. We all took the bar exam, I.

Jennie Levin [00:34:38]:
Guess, and there’s not. And people are so passionate about it. Right. I mean, you have hardcore privacy supporters and then you have other.

Jennie Levin [00:34:50]:
Sometimes I feel like the argument is inconsistent. Right. We want institutions to utilize blockchain technology. We want, you know, financial institutions specifically, we want the government to start to use blockchain technology. But we want to have like massive privacy protections. I just think you can’t reconcile all of that. And so you’re right. You know, maybe there needs to be, you know, some chains that have greater privacy than others, but then, you know, which ones are the financial institutions going to use and probably the ones that have greater protect regulatory protections.

Jennie Levin [00:35:24]:
I don’t know. Or maybe, I don’t know.

Moish Peltz [00:35:27]:
I don’t have like, is crypto mixing legal or not? It’s like we’re prosecuting people, but we have agencies saying that it’s, it’s legal. So it’s very confusing. Right. And there’s not a clear answer for.

Kyle Lawrence [00:35:37]:
For most, I would assume that the financial institutions and the banks would be, the regulations would say what they can and can’t use or put the guardrails on it. They wouldn’t, it wouldn’t, wouldn’t be up to them to pick which ones they would want to use. That would just be my guess.

Jennie Levin [00:35:50]:
I mean, I think, yeah, I think that that’s absolutely right. Right. They would have to go with the ones that complied with their masters and what they’re, whatever their regulators say. And then it’s a matter of are people going to use it if that’s what they go with? If they have privacy concerns? I don’t know. I mean, maybe we should start a think tank, you guys, and we can come up with a solution and monetize it. Quit our day jobs.

Kyle Lawrence [00:36:15]:
It’s interesting how much privacy comes up though, not just in the crypto facet of my practice, just in my garden variety corporate practice. People call me all the time. It’s like I want to set up an llc, but I want to do it in Wyoming because I want to keep my identity safe. It’s like you can form one in New York and you’re, you’re not publicly listed anywhere. There’s no, there’s no disclosure. And they don’t believe me because they just, they have it in their head that it’s like New York is this, you know, is this open tomb of information about everybody. Because while it’s true, you can’t walk down the street without being filmed or thrown out of the garden because they don’t like you or whatever it is. You can form an entity and you have privacy.

Kyle Lawrence [00:36:52]:
Like, it’s, I don’t know where people, people get.

Moish Peltz [00:36:54]:
I don’t.

Kyle Lawrence [00:36:54]:
And I’m not trying to be flippant about it. I’m not dismissing their concerns and all that. Don’t at me. But, you know, but people get these, these ideas in their head and it’s fueled by, I think, some of the echo chambers in which they participate. And then it’s, and then that just drives their entire decision making. And I think that’s faulty because you’re going to miss the forest through the trees. If you think that way, it’s just my obnoxious opinion.

Jennie Levin [00:37:16]:
I agree with you. And I think it applies to so many different aspects, right? Like crypto scammer, right? I mean, like, you don’t take the time to actually learn about the facts, but you hear it and you believe it and you hear it so much that you believe it even more. And then you just operate and labor under this misapprehension. Right. I think, though I will say, you know, back to my prosecutor hat. I do think privacy, you know, I agree with you, Moish, like privacy is important in terms of. We see identity theft runs rampant, right? And, and it can destroy your, your life. I mean, it can.

Jennie Levin [00:37:48]:
It’s like we. It’s not just a pain in the butt, right? I mean, it really causes a disruption and it’s also so invasive. I mean, having somebody take your identity is hugely impactful in so many ways, not just financial. And so I’m all for, you know, being careful. And you know, lots of, lots of people want to put their houses in trust, right. They don’t want to have their name on their mortgage, on their deeds. And so I get it. And you have to be more careful because criminals become more and more savvy and, and have ways of getting your information.

Jennie Levin [00:38:23]:
So. And I think that blockchain is a great way to be able to provide that type of privacy. Right. It’s just a matter of like, how much privacy can we get away with while also ensuring mainstream adoption of blockchain technology. What do you think, Kyle? No, I’m just kidding.

Moish Peltz [00:38:40]:
Yeah, Kyle, let’s go. Come on, your turn.

Kyle Lawrence [00:38:43]:
Well, listen.

Kyle Lawrence [00:38:45]:
I think it’s a great point about identity theft as a good sort of foundation upon which to have the discussion. I had a minor identity theft issue in 2017. I came home, my wife and I were, we were doing a staycation and I came home and I got a bill from Kohl’s and I was like, I’ve never shopped at Kohl’s. That’s weird. And just kind of put it on the, on the counter and didn’t think about it. A couple days later I look at it and it was a bill for $987, which is you can open, I think, an immediate thousand dollar credit card with a Social Security number at Kohl’s. No, with like no approval process. And, and then those things started trickling and yeah, it’s an enormous pain in the ass.

Kyle Lawrence [00:39:25]:
So it was horrible. I had to go to the, I had to File a police report. I had to contact my insurance company. I had to do all that good stuff. So those things are definitely part and parcel of the equation. I just don’t think it should be the end all, be all of the discussion. Because if that’s all you’re concerned about, there are other ways to do that.

Kyle Lawrence [00:39:46]:
And I think that. And I, and I would say my obnoxious opinion, I was being flippant about it is I have calls, I had, I had this call with one guy I’m not going to get, give his identity away. But he basically was protecting of you. He’s yelling at me about CBDCs Central Bank Digital currencies. And he was.

Jennie Levin [00:40:07]:
But no, thank you for clarifying that.

Kyle Lawrence [00:40:09]:
Well, for, for our viewers out there.

Jennie Levin [00:40:10]:
All right, I forgot there are other people.

Jennie Levin [00:40:13]:
On our couches having a conversation. Conversation.

Kyle Lawrence [00:40:15]:
It’s for my mom who watches the podcast. It doesn’t always know the acronyms that we use. I have to, you know.

Kyle Lawrence [00:40:23]:
Our audience. But he was screaming at me. He was like, we can’t have CBDCs because that’s going to destroy our privacy. They can code in the CBDC what you can and cannot buy with it. And if I want to be able to buy a rifle, I’m not going to be able to do it because the government’s going to say I can’t do it and they’re going to code it in the cbdc. And I had to talk them off the ledge and say, well, I don’t think that’s true. It can happen, but it’s not true. And CBDCs are not this threat.

Kyle Lawrence [00:40:51]:
You know, they’re not. It’s not galactus coming to swallow the earth. It’s something that was open for comment by the White House a couple years ago and it never really made much progress through any chamber of government, local or federal.

Kyle Lawrence [00:41:03]:
And to me, that’s what I mean. When people kind of get locked into what they want this industry to look like, that they remove all objectivity and they remove the ability to see other benefits and other practical applications of what we can do here. Obviously, privacy is important, but so is fluidity. So is cross border transactions. The ability to work with other people in the space you’ve mentioned. It takes a village. It absolutely does. And I think if it’s, well, what can this industry do for me, then it’s not going to work.

Kyle Lawrence [00:41:34]:
It’s what can this industry do for all of us? That’s what’s going to make it work. That was a real roundabout way of.

Jennie Levin [00:41:39]:
Answering your question, but I think you are spot on and I think that people have. Have such strong views and they do get caught up in those views and they can’t get out of their heads like you said, they can’t see the forest from the trees and they become so entrenched in their position that they don’t know how to walk it back for the greater good of, you know, getting us where we want to get to as an industry. Nobody’s going to have it all. Right? Just like when you vote for a political candidate, right? They’re not going to represent all your views. You have to pick what’s important to you and you have to think about like what’s going to be the best overall.

Moish Peltz [00:42:10]:
I want to pull on something you mentioned earlier, which is you, you are transitioning. The Algorand foundation is transitioning more to a US Focus. And I’m curious, you know, what, what your experience has been like, you know, in the seven months you’ve been there and in refocusing the organization on the US and you know, what excites you and what scares you about perhaps re. Re locating some of your operations in this jurisdiction?

Jennie Levin [00:42:39]:
There’s so much that excites me. You know, the US Is one of the most vibrant economies. It’s an untapped market for Algorand. Really. You know, there’s amazing developers.

Jennie Levin [00:42:55]:
The financial upside of operating in the US Is enormous.

Jennie Levin [00:43:01]:
I think we are in a time where you can.

Jennie Levin [00:43:06]:
We don’t have regulatory certainty by any stretch of the imagination, but you have a little bit of leeway to be able to.

Jennie Levin [00:43:16]:
Try new things and.

Jennie Levin [00:43:21]:
Operate in a way that you weren’t able to before. And I think that that sort of increased freedom and flexibility is exciting for what’s going to be coming on Algorand. And you know, our payments focus, our real world asset focus, our financial institution focus, our institutional focus more generally. I think it pairs really well with the U.S. economy and the U.S. infrastructure. And I think, you know, I’m excited about the idea of bridging the US and our international efforts and our international presence and the work that our developers have done, you know, in different jurisdictions. I think it’s going to be really impactful and exciting and I think that our real world use cases are going to be huge for US users.

Jennie Levin [00:44:09]:
And I think being able to support US developers is going to be awesome. And I think coming home is like, there’s something poetic about it, right? We were born in Boston and to be able to, to be able to be Back in the usa, I feel like, you know, coming to America, but like, coming back to America and, you know, just be able to.

Moish Peltz [00:44:33]:
Coming to America with the number two.

Kyle Lawrence [00:44:34]:
With the number two. Yeah, exactly.

Jennie Levin [00:44:37]:
Right, that’s. I’m gonna get a T shirt that says that Algorand coming to America. I’ll get one for you guys.

Jennie Levin [00:44:47]:
But so I’m excited about it. You know what scares me? I mean, the opportunity is what excites me. And Elrond is well positioned to take advantage of that opportunity for all of the reasons, you know, that I mentioned inherently about the blockchain and the protocol itself. But also, we’ve an amazing team at the foundation. Right. Like our BD team, we have amazing ecosystem. We have an amazing, amazing community. I mean, the Elrond community, they are.

Jennie Levin [00:45:10]:
They are in it, right? Like, they are vocal and they are involved and they love the chain and I love that about them. And so I think we are positioned well to attack this next phase. What scares me is.

Jennie Levin [00:45:29]:
The regulatory uncertainty. I think you can try to navigate it the best you can and try to predict what you think is going to happen and you can optimize for potential pitfalls that come your way. Absolutely. But as lawyers, right. There’s a part of us that likes some clarity. As I was just, you know, talking about how I like the uncertainty. I do. But it would be nice to have, like, a little bit more certainty.

Moish Peltz [00:45:55]:
A little bit.

Jennie Levin [00:45:56]:
Just a bit.

Kyle Lawrence [00:45:57]:
Just to take a touch.

Jennie Levin [00:45:58]:
Yeah. Just to make it, like a little bit so I can sleep at night. But I. So, so that, that, that does. That does cause me some pause, especially because we don’t know who’s going to be in power in the White House in, you know, several years and who the next commissioner at the SEC is going to be. And until we get legislation, like, I know we have the Genius act, right. But until we get market structure, legislation, then sure, the SEC can issue staff guidance all they want, but, you know, it. It can be changed on a dime.

Jennie Levin [00:46:29]:
Right. No action letters. Okay, great. But sure. What does it really mean? And again, I don’t mean to be a pessimist. I think it’s really good that these things are happening right now. But if you’re asking me what causes me angst, it’s. It’s the, the lack of formality and the lack of.

Jennie Levin [00:46:46]:
Of finality. Finality. Finality.

Kyle Lawrence [00:46:50]:
I think that is right.

Moish Peltz [00:46:52]:
Yeah.

Kyle Lawrence [00:46:52]:
Yeah.

Jennie Levin [00:46:53]:
Finality, right. Yeah. You know, that comes with, like, legislation in my hand type situation. So, you know, hopefully we’ll see that.

Moish Peltz [00:47:02]:
But nonetheless, I guess, yeah, Chair. Chair Atkins saying, I think this week that the innovation exemption that has been long awaited, that should be out in the next month or two. Does that. Does that move the needle or is that kind of fall into that same bucket of. Well, that’s great, but it’s. It’s really staff guidance. And until we have market structure, we’re kind of just still in this intermediate stage.

Jennie Levin [00:47:25]:
Listen, I don’t want to downplay its importance because I think it’s a huge step in the right direction and something that the crypto community and blockchain community have been fighting for for a long time. And these small wins stack up. And they are. Yeah, I mean, you know, like kudos to the blockchain community and crypto community for making the progress that it’s made thus far in changing the way people think, you know, about blockchain and regulation at a high level and educating. So I do think it’s meaningful, and I think it allows people to be in the US and feel much more comfortable. Right. It gives a little bit of regulatory clarity and, you know, to be able to operate, which is huge because, you know, the more entrenched we become in the U.S. the more the U.S.

Jennie Levin [00:48:09]:
sees the benefit, you know, from an economical perspective, to having blockchain. You know, be in the US Innovation, be in the US the more I think they’ll understand that we can have appropriately tailored regulation that allows for the innovation, but also the protection.

Kyle Lawrence [00:48:28]:
Absolutely. I mean, you nailed it. You know, the full faith and credit of the United States means something. You know, one of the reasons why the US Dollar, you know, remains strong is the fact that people want to do business here and trust that we have a stable system. That and petrodollars, but we need to get into that now. But the same thing applies to cryptocurrency. And for years, for the United States to be on the outside looking in just seemed crazy to us. And I think I share some of your trepidation.

Kyle Lawrence [00:48:56]:
Maybe for lack of a better word, that market structure probably at this point is not going to get through, just given the fact that we’re about to head into a midterm election cycle. I would love it if it does. And I think you’re exactly right. The stamp of legislation is better than staff guidance from some of these agencies. But you’re exactly right. We don’t know what the future holds, and we’d like to see more of these things come to pass, not just for Al grand, but for all of us. Me and what Moish and I do for a living. It’s nice to say, okay, you want to launch this platform here in the United States, here is what you need to do.

Kyle Lawrence [00:49:29]:
We don’t necessarily have that. It’s still kind of a. We got to take what you have and try to fit it into a, you know, this paradigm that sort of has loose borders around it, which is fine for us, but it sucks for the operators.

Jennie Levin [00:49:42]:
Right. And I think, you know, we’re talking about real world use cases and like, you know, institutions and financial institutions. I, I find it hard to believe that they’re really going to get themselves involved significantly with blockchain until we have some legislation. Right. Because for them it’s like their bread and butter is their main business. Right. And they’re not going to put that at risk by, you know, dabbling in blockchain if they are putting themselves out on a limb, right. If they could get dinged for that because they’re not going to risk their, their main function, their main business.

Jennie Levin [00:50:17]:
So I don’t know. I think, I think I’m excited about what’s to come. I really am. I do think that we’re going to make progress in, you know, in terms of legislation at some point. And it’s just a slow slog sloth. Guys, what is wrong with me today?

Kyle Lawrence [00:50:35]:
I don’t know what the weather is in Chicago, but it’s pouring here in New York and I was in the city this morning and I changed my socks three times since I’ve been home and I’m still soaking wet, so I don’t know.

Jennie Levin [00:50:45]:
Well, thank you for making me feel better. You guys are so much fun to hang out with. I want to like hang out with you all the time.

Kyle Lawrence [00:50:50]:
All right, let’s go to Alenia and hang out.

Moish Peltz [00:50:53]:
There you go.

Kyle Lawrence [00:50:55]:
Twist my arm.

Jennie Levin [00:50:58]:
Let’s do it.

Kyle Lawrence [00:50:59]:
Well, Jenny, before we go and a plus guest, by the way, you’re welcome back anytime. And I do mean that I think I speak for moisture when I say that I understand. Algorand recently announced a partnership with Wirex. Can you elaborate on what that entails? It’s pretty exciting stuff.

Jennie Levin [00:51:14]:
We are very excited about our partnership with Wirex. It gives more than 7 million Wirex users the ability to hold, send and spend USDC on Algorand both natively in their app and then also through their Wirex Visa card. And it’s, I think the number is like, you know, 80 million merchants worldwide accept the card. Right. So it really gives us massive exposure for USDC on Algorand and we’re so excited about the payments community. We’re so excited about stablecoin payments. So being able to partner with Wirex is huge for us. We have right now something called the Para card because we have the Para wallet where you can also use USDC on Algorand for payments.

Jennie Levin [00:52:00]:
But again, Wirex is across multiple chains and has such a huge user base and so breaking into that space, space with them is really meaningful to, to Algorand. And we’re, we’re thrilled to be doing it.

Kyle Lawrence [00:52:14]:
That’s very cool. That’s exciting. That’s, that’s worth noting.

Moish Peltz [00:52:17]:
Yeah.

Kyle Lawrence [00:52:17]:
Well, I think that that about wraps it up for us. Jenny Levin, chief legal and operating officer at Algorand foundation, you have been an A guest. I, I mean it. You’re fantastic. And, you know, hopefully our paths cross and we can meet in person in one of our summits or conferences. Until then, you know, keep fighting the good fight. Welcome back anytime.

Jennie Levin [00:52:37]:
Thank you guys so much for having me. This was actually, I think, the most fun podcast I have done.

Kyle Lawrence [00:52:43]:
I’d love to hear it.

Moish Peltz [00:52:45]:
That’s great. Thank you so much.

Kyle Lawrence [00:52:51]:
Well, that wraps it up for this very special episode of Block and Order an extra special thank you to Jenny Levin. Thank you very much for your time and for your insights. Moish and I found it super fascinating. Please don’t forget to like and subscribe. Links to our socials are down below in the show notes. If there’s anything you’d like to see discussed on Block and Order, please leave a comment down below. We do review those comments, except the spam ones. We don’t respond to those.

Kyle Lawrence [00:53:13]:
Remember, nothing on this show.

Moish Peltz [00:53:15]:
They do happen.

Kyle Lawrence [00:53:16]:
People give their seed phrases in there.

Moish Peltz [00:53:17]:
I was going to say, except for the seed phrases. You know, we enter those in just to make sure it does.

Kyle Lawrence [00:53:21]:
Right. I mean, you never know what’s in there. Remember that nothing on the show is.

Moish Peltz [00:53:25]:
I’m joking. Please don’t do that.

Kyle Lawrence [00:53:27]:
Please don’t do that. We don’t give legal advice, but don’t do that. And on that note, nothing on Block and Order is meant to be construed as legal and or financial advice. Except don’t disclose your seed phrases to anybody out there. If somebody from Coinbase pretends pretending to reach out to you, saying, give us your seed phrase, that’s a scam. Don’t do it. Please consider.

Moish Peltz [00:53:47]:
Not even once.

Kyle Lawrence [00:53:48]:
Yeah, not even once. I don’t care who it is. Not even to us. Not at your lawyers. Don’t give them to us.

Moish Peltz [00:53:54]:
We don’t want them.

Kyle Lawrence [00:53:55]:
No, we don’t want them. Extra special thank you. A lot of extra special thank you today to OG producer Abby. Without her, the show would not be possible. And on behalf of Moist Pelts, I’m Kyle Lawrence. Take care, everybody.

Moish Peltz [00:54:08]:
See you next time.