In this episode of Block and Order, hosts Kyle and Moish dive into their experience at the massive Bitcoin 2025 conference in Las Vegas and break down the latest shakeups in the crypto legal world. They unpack major stories like the Coinbase customer data breach, the Ripple vs. SEC settlement controversy, and the surprising sale of CryptoPunks IP to a nonprofit. The conversation also covers class action lawsuits against MicroStrategy, new DeFi roundtables launched by the SEC, and what these developments could mean for the future of the space. To wrap things up, they power through a fast-paced lightning round touching on crypto crime sentencing, memecoin scams, trademark battles over Trump-themed tokens, and the evolving role of crypto foundations.

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Chapter Markers:

00:00 Welcome to Block & Order
01:36 Bitcoin 2025
06:32 Coinbase
10:10 Ripple
15:54 Punks IP
23:30 Lightning Round (Alex Mashinsky, PumpFun, MicroStrategy, Trump Crypto, DeFi Roundtable, A16Z)

Show Notes:

Bitcoin 2025 Recap – Las Vegas, NV
https://b.tc/conference/2025

Coinbase says hackers bribed staff to steal customer data and are demanding $20 million ransom
https://www.cnbc.com/2025/05/15/coinbase-says-hackers-bribed-staff-to-steal-customer-data-and-are-demanding-20-million-ransom.html

Ripple Settlement Slammed by SEC Commissioner
https://u.today/ripple-settlement-slammed-by-sec-commissioner

CryptoPunks IP Sells for Around $20 Million to Infinite Node Foundation
https://nftnow.com/news/cryptopunks-ip-sells-20-million/

Lightning Round:
Celsius CEO Alex Mashinsky sentenced to 12 years in multi-billion-dollar crypto fraud case
https://www.cnbc.com/2025/05/08/celsius-ceo-alex-mashinsky-sentenced-to-12-years-in-crypto-fraud-case.html
‘Alarming’ 99% of Memecoin Launches on PumpFun are Pump-and-Dumps or Rug Pulls: Report
https://thedefiant.io/news/defi/alarming-99-of-memecoin-launches-on-pumpfun-are-pump-and-dumps-or-rug-pulls-report?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=report-finds-99-of-pumpfun-memecoins-are-scams-or-rug-pulls
Are Corporate Bitcoin Treasuries at Risk? Michael Saylor’s Strategy Hit With Class-Action Lawsuit
https://cryptonews.com/news/strategy-lawsuit-poses-threat-to-corporate-bitcoin-treasuries/
Trump Crypto Feud Heats Up With Cease-and-Desist Letter
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-06-05/trump-crypto-feud-heats-up-with-cease-and-desist-letter?embedded-checkout=true
Crypto Task Force Roundtable – DeFi and the American Spirit 
https://www.sec.gov/newsroom/meetings-events/defi-american-spirit
The end of the foundation era in crypto
https://a16zcrypto.com/posts/article/end-foundation-era-crypto/

Watch or listen to the podcast here:

   

Transcript:

**This transcript has been prepared automatically by AI and may contain inaccuracies**

Kyle Lawrence [00:00:00]:
Bitcoin25 is in the rear view mirror. Ripple gets ripped, and wouldn’t you know it, 99% of all meme coins are frauds. Well, I never. All that and more coming up on Block & Order.

Kyle Lawrence [00:00:21]:
Welcome to Block and Order, the show that dives into the legal side of all things digital assets and beyond. I’m Kyle Lawrence, and with me as always. Even he thinks the Show Me State is a stupid nickname. Mr. Moish Peltz.

Moish Peltz [00:00:33]:
Wait, which one’s the Show Me State?

Kyle Lawrence [00:00:34]:
Missouri. We killed it from what we were going to talk about today, but I just. It’s such a dumb nickname. I had to get it in there.

Moish Peltz [00:00:40]:
It is a really dumb nickname.

Kyle Lawrence [00:00:41]:
Yeah.

Moish Peltz [00:00:42]:
Why is it called the Show Me State?

Kyle Lawrence [00:00:43]:
If you know, you know, I looked it up before and there were conflicting reports. You know how like the Joker and the Dark Knight tells different stories of his origin. It’s kind of like that. So I’m assuming all of them are untrue.

Moish Peltz [00:00:53]:
Yeah, that sounds right.

Kyle Lawrence [00:00:54]:
Yeah. How you doing, man? Nice to see you two. A couple episodes in one day. I like this.

Moish Peltz [00:01:00]:
Two episodes in one day. Although the audience, through the magic of editing, might not even notice.

Kyle Lawrence [00:01:06]:
You don’t even know which episode it is.

Moish Peltz [00:01:08]:
And I was at two conferences in two weeks, which is another pair of twos. Look at you now. I’m back.

Kyle Lawrence [00:01:15]:
Now you’re back. And I’m leaving tomorrow for a sort of conference where I don’t have to do anything. I just have to physically be there, which is what I do best.

Moish Peltz [00:01:24]:
Those are good conferences. Just show up, have a good time, head on home.

Kyle Lawrence [00:01:28]:
Everyone on this planet is good at one thing, Moish. And I found my true calling and I’m going to live it up tomorrow.

Moish Peltz [00:01:35]:
Well, speaking of conferences that were not like that, I think we can dive right into Bitcoin 2025, the conference that we both just attended in Las Vegas, Nevada. And this was definitely not a show up and hang out and come back home kind of conference. There was a lot going on. I think There was over 30,000 registered attendees, plus a bunch more. Many of them high profile VIP types in the crypto industry and beyond, including some of the Trump kids and other public company CEOs and so forth, but all in a great atmosphere. Kyle, what’d you think?

Kyle Lawrence [00:02:21]:
It was a terrific atmosphere. As you noted, a lot of heavy hitters. Michael Saylor was there. He gave something of a keynote address. Ross Ulbricht gave the ultimate keynote on the final day. Fascinating stuff. J.D. vance was there.

Kyle Lawrence [00:02:33]:
You know, one of the mornings. Turned it into a bit of a security nightmare, but you know, but nonetheless, really wonderful speakers. Gary and Grant Cardone were there, but in addition to just the energy being so great, you have people on the exhibition floor with really innovative new products. You know, not, not just the bitcoin mining stuff, but the people who are using, you know, bitcoin and other cryptocurrency holdings and leveraging it into buying real estate. And you know, there was, there were companies where you could leverage your own home equity into buying, which, you know, we have mixed feelings about. But nonetheless, the fact that people are doing these things is really cool and really innovative. And they can’t all be home runs, but even a couple singles and doubles are worth taking note of, I think.

Moish Peltz [00:03:17]:
Yeah, I agree. I mean, it’s, it’s always fascinating to see what people are working on. It sounds a little bit constraining of, well, we’re at a conference about bitcoin and there’s not really much you think you can do on bitcoin except if you go to the conference and you talk to some people, it’s like, oh wait, there’s actually a lot surrounding it. There’s a lot of industry, both from mining perspective and from lending custodial type products to a wide range of things. I thought that was interesting. The one you mentioned about being able to tap the home equity line of credit, but instead of withdrawing cash or withdrawing bitcoin.

Kyle Lawrence [00:03:56]:
Right.

Moish Peltz [00:03:57]:
That was a little scary because I’m like, oh, I started thinking about like, run some numbers, you know, talking to the wife, how’s this going to work out here? So I thought, I thought that was cool. And, and I’ll, I’ll say the one other thing that I thought was really cool, which I don’t think you see at a lot of other conferences. I mean, you do, but you know, I, I spoke to a handful of people that were not in the industry. They were just there because they own bitcoin and they love bitcoin and they live in the Midwest and they have lots of bitcoin and they talk to all their friends and their neighbors and family and they have no idea what they’re talking about. And they come to the bitcoin conference because those are their people. And those were probably some of my favorite conversations of the week.

Kyle Lawrence [00:04:44]:
Yeah, that’s true. Well, that’s the beauty of these conferences is that we all are there for similar reasons. We all love this space. So you have an instant commonality. You instantly become their friend. And when you have people who, I mean, let’s face it, the people you’re talking about, chances are a lot of them bought 100 bitcoin when it was, you know, a couple bucks and now they’re sitting on a Pretty penny. And the conversation is awful.

Moish Peltz [00:05:05]:
That’s, that’s why they like bitcoin, right?

Kyle Lawrence [00:05:07]:
Of course they’re happy. Who would be in a great mood being in Vegas, but, you know, It’s. I made 50 million bucks in bitcoin, which is great. It’s like, now what do I do with it? Where you, where do you have it? It’s like, oh, it’s sitting on Coinbase. Oh, God, no.

Moish Peltz [00:05:19]:
But I’m being a little facetious, right? I mean, they obviously like bitcoin because it has made them a good amount of money, but the reason that they’re in it that early and they’re still in it and they’re excited about it and they’re coming to these conferences because they love it and like these, this is their tribe. And it’s just, it’s. It’s amazing to see that level of enthusiasm not among industry participants that are there with something to sell, but among just ordinary folks that are now wealthy ordinary folks because of bitcoin. And it’s just fun. It’s cool.

Kyle Lawrence [00:05:51]:
Yeah. Well, speaking of fun and cool, and not to be outdone, but I picked up this wonderful bitcoin Chia Pet, which.

Moish Peltz [00:05:58]:
Oh, man, I love it. Wait, so are you going to start growing it?

Kyle Lawrence [00:06:01]:
So I’m going to start growing it and I’ll provide updates on a per episode basis, come up with a name. Can’t just call it Bitcoin. That’s not original.

Moish Peltz [00:06:10]:
You got to put it somewhere behind you in frame. I mean, you see, my little. I brought this guy back from the conference, a little plushie that I told, I told Kyle it was for my kids, but it’s really for my backdrop.

Kyle Lawrence [00:06:24]:
Listen, you work hard and you deserve to. To treat yourself once in a while or.

Moish Peltz [00:06:28]:
Treat yourself. Treat yourself. That’s right.

Kyle Lawrence [00:06:31]:
Well, Speaking of keeping $50 million on Coinbase, recently, this seems like a long time ago. Hackers bribed Coinbase staff and stole customer data as part of a $20 million ransom scheme. Hackers bribed overseas customer support agents to access and exfiltrate sensitive customer information, including names, email addresses, partial Social Security numbers, and government issued ID images. This breach affected less than 1% of Coinbase’s monthly active users, which is still a lot. Importantly, no passwords, private keys, or direct access to consumer funds were compromised. You know, Moish, is it shocking that a company is big and as powerful and as well funded and as secure and safe and all the adjectives that I can rattle off, like Coinbase had this type of hack.

Moish Peltz [00:07:23]:
I mean, I guess it’s not that surprising. I, I mean you, you do hear a lot about, I mean not just Coinbase, but about different exchanges, not just in the US around the world. That, that there’s just a lot, I mean, look, there’s not a really strong regulatory, you know, market regulation for these exchanges. They’re mostly self regulated. They do, you know, know, I guess in Coinbase, for example, from a custody perspective, has a lot of regulation thinking about the New York bit license and things like that and other licenses they maintain around the world. But I mean the, the point of attack here was really overseas customer support agents and I don’t know, I mean now there’s going to be a lot of scrutiny about that, but really it was indirect in that it’s just giving up, you know, information about their customers and then the hackers are now using that information to independently attack the customers. Now I know that they had made a ransom demand which Coinbase refused and then Coinbase basically committed to remediating and reimbursing customers. But it just scares me a little bit.

Moish Peltz [00:08:38]:
I’m sure it scares a lot of people that use Coinbase, including me. I use Coinbase as well into, you know, just like, well like I’m just like less confident in their ability to secure my personal information.

Kyle Lawrence [00:08:51]:
Right. Well, it’s, it’s a tricky thing. I mean, look, since we have been talking about this topic for the last two plus minutes, Chase has been hacked probably three times. So it’s not, this is not a unique problem to, to just Coinbase, but I think it just heightens the, the scrutiny we all have to use when we approach how we store our digital assets. It’s kind of thing we harp on all the time is, you know, not that we don’t trust Coinbase, but I trust my cold wallet a little bit more. I trust the institutional custodial relationship a little bit more. You know, nowhere is safe. I mean right now, I mean I’m not a, you know, a billionaire by any stretch of the imagination, but I think right now I have 19 worth of avalanche in my Coinbase account.

Kyle Lawrence [00:09:28]:
There’s a reason for that. You know, I don’t even think it’s $19 actually.

Moish Peltz [00:09:35]:
No, but I mean, look, you’re seeing all sorts of the problem with crypto, right, is the custody for all the positivity of not your keys, not your coins. The problem is if your keys are the single point of failure, they won’t be your coins either if someone attacks that.

Kyle Lawrence [00:09:53]:
Right?

Moish Peltz [00:09:54]:
And so we’ve Seen a lot of wrench attacks and now know these kinds of sophisticated customer service like attacks. And it’s just scary, man. There’s. There’s a lot of ways you can lose your crypto.

Kyle Lawrence [00:10:07]:
Yeah, those wrench attacks are no joke.

Moish Peltz [00:10:09]:
All right, next topic up is the Ripple settlement, which was slammed by SEC Commissioner Crenshaw. So Commissioner Crenshaw voiced strong opposition to the SEC settlement with Ripple, arguing that the settlement undermines the agency’s authority and the court’s role in interpreting securities laws. Now, if you remember, the settlement between the SEC happened after the swearing in of President Trump and the mandate to. For the SEC to really turn around and become much more friendly to industry. And so as part of that, not just this case was settled, but many other cases are settled. So, Kyle, my question for you is, you know, is Crenshaw’s concerns, are these legitimate? Should we be a little bit concerned that we don’t have, you know, any. The SEC case was famously decided and was going to be appealed, and now we don’t have any finality to that appeal. Should we be concerned that we don’t have that finality anymore because the SEC settled it?

Kyle Lawrence [00:11:12]:
I think it’s a great point you raised, Moish, and you’ve mentioned it on prior episodes. In a discussion we had earlier today, you also mentioned it. I think that Commissioner Crenshaw is onto something insofar as there still needs to be some teeth to what the SEC can and cannot do. As you alluded to all of these enforcement actions and DOJ investigations, all of them pretty much got washed away. Uniswap, Coinbase, Kraken, Metamask. I mean, I can go on and on. And as we saw a couple weeks ago, you know, Oregon picked up one of the cases. Forgive me, I forget it’s late in the night.

Kyle Lawrence [00:11:47]:
I forget which one it was, but they picked up one of the enforcement actions that was dropped. So I don’t know if Commissioner Crenshaw is trying to help encourage the states to pick up the baton for some of these cases because not to point the finger at Ripple or to say that they did anything untoward, but, you know, there are still bad actors in this space. So if the SEC can’t go after them, who is necessarily going to do that? You know, and I talk a lot about pendulum swinging. You don’t want to over regulate, you don’t want to over enforce these things. But there are still bad actors out there who, despite all of the savvy investments and savvy strategies that smart people can undertake when they make these investments, they can still be defrauded. So who’s the gatekeeper there? I, I think that she’s onto something almost accidentally by what she’s doing here.

Moish Peltz [00:12:35]:
Yeah. And I, I think, you know, the idea that there was this judgment against Ripple and then they had a 125 million dollar civil penalty and that all that’s just going to go away by virtue of dropping this case, it feels a little bit like, I don’t know, it just, it feels a little bit weird that they went through all the process of litigation. They got, you know, they didn’t get everything they wanted in, in court, but they got some of what they wanted and they got a judgment against Ripple and presumably that would be appealed and, and you know, it would be evaluated on appeal. But to just say, okay, just kidding, let’s like fair fight, let’s, let’s, let’s wipe it away, clean slate and start over again feels like a pretty significant concession by the SEC. But to your point of, well, the SEC should be really going after, you know, con artists and bad actors and scammers and fraudsters that are, that are violating the securities laws by taking those actions. Like, I’m not sure Ripple ever had the initiative, those things that, that should have caused the SEC to go after them. So I, I get it from that standpoint, but it still feels like they went down that road. They had a partial victory and they’re like, well, even the partial victory work, right.

Kyle Lawrence [00:14:02]:
It’s almost like she’s saying the right thing for the wrong reason. Like if she were talking about a different issuer, maybe it would make more sense. I mean, look, Commissioner Crenshaw, let’s, let’s call it like it is. I mean, she would have criticized almost any, any one of, any one of the outcomes like this. Not to denigrate her. She’s very smart and good at what she does, but pretty much she was one of the most anti crypto people at the SEC, notably so, so I.

Moish Peltz [00:14:24]:
Don’t know, I will say I was watching the, and we’ll get into a little bit later in the episode, the, the DeFi roundtable. And she was one of the speakers as one of the commissioners to introduce the roundtable. And she did have some pretty reasoned comments. Right. She just, you know, I think she wants to genuinely avoid lack of regulation and creating a regulatory vacuum. And I, I do think even on a bipartisan basis there are people that do want some intelligent, thoughtful, right sized regulation. I just disagree with how she wants to go about it. So, so it, but, but it, I, I, it’ll be interesting to see with her being the, you know, the dissenting voice and a lot of what’s going on now.

Moish Peltz [00:15:11]:
If she starts, I think she’s not start, but if she continues to be much more circumspect in how she is critiquing what the SEC is doing and saying, okay, not just crypto bad, but right, you have, you have done this and this part of it is, is not correct for this policy reason, for this legal reason. That’d be interesting to see. I think we’re starting to see her be kind of get more in line that way because just to keep beating the drum of crypto bad is, is, you know, just not, not the way.

Kyle Lawrence [00:15:47]:
You should be saying falling on a, falling on deaf ears kind of thing.

Moish Peltz [00:15:51]:
Yeah, that’s true too.

Kyle Lawrence [00:15:52]:
Yeah. All right, Next up, the CryptoPunks intellectual property has been acquired for. I can’t believe this. $20 million. Sounds like pocket change. By a non profit organization aiming to preserve the NFT collection’s legacy. The Infinite Node Foundation Node, a nonprofit dedicated to preserving digital art, acquired the intellectual property of cryptopunks directly from Yuga labs for the 20 million bucks. This landmark deal transfers stewardship of one of the most iconic NFT collections to an organization focused on a long term preservation and cultural integration.

Kyle Lawrence [00:16:23]:
Node has established an advisory board comprising notable figures from the cryptopunks ecosystem, including Larva Labs founder Matt hall and John Watkinson, Yuga Labs co founder Wiley Wiley Arono and Art Blocks founder Eric Calderon. This move signifies a return to the collection’s roots and aims to guide its future within the art world. Moish, do you think that the sale of cryptopunks will achieve these lofty goals? It seems like they were doing okay by their own, but I don’t own a punk, so what do I.

Moish Peltz [00:16:53]:
A few points. One, yeah, 20 million feels like it’s missing a zero. And we can talk about why that that may be. I will say I thought Yuga Labs was actually a very good steward of cryptopunks.

Kyle Lawrence [00:17:07]:
I would think so.

Moish Peltz [00:17:08]:
They didn’t, they didn’t mess it up. But it did feel a little weird. One, Yuga Labs is really focused and now they’re, they say they’re laser focused on the Bored Ape brand and all sorts of Ape stuff. And how did CryptoPunks fit into that? I think that was part of the tension there. And two, it just felt weird that this iconic art project was owned by a venture Backed for profit company and it felt a little bit just out of line with the vision for what CryptoPunks represents in the ecosystem. So from those perspectives, I think this solves a lot of those, I wouldn’t even say issues because there was no problem. But this puts it at least hypothetically on a better footing to take away the profit motive, the profit incentives from tinkering with the CryptoPunks brand, aside from just acting as a steward of the NFTS as art. So that’s the goal as I understand it.

Moish Peltz [00:18:18]:
The advisory board, as I understand it, is fully aligned in that vision. It’s not clear to me how this foundation is going to be governed. And they’re an advisory board. Right. I don’t know if they’re actually having direct one to one, you know, like how advisory versus mandatory is their advice. And so exactly what this means, what’s going to happen long term, how successful the Node foundation will be I think is all an open question. But I think all the things I’ve heard, all the people I’ve talked to both in and out the know just in the punk ecosystem, I think are all feeling good about it, all feel like it’s a positive development. So I have no reason to think otherwise.

Kyle Lawrence [00:19:03]:
That was a great measured, reasoned response and it’s evidenced by the fact that after the announcement the floor price rose to nearly 48. So that’s cool. It seemed like the community is, is on board with your assessment. Yeah, great stuff. I, I didn’t realize that, that people or cryptopunks or community felt that way about the stewardship from Yuga Lab. So it’s interesting. I learned.

Moish Peltz [00:19:26]:
Yeah, it’s interesting right. I think, I think there was a bit of hesitancy and concern at when it first got transferred over. I mean looking back right to when Larva Labs, Matt Hall, John Watkinson decided to sell it. I think there was, they. They just felt like they could not right do all the things that needed to be done to shepherd it. You know they were just I think burnt out from it really is what, is what I heard. And you labs really like the, the joke was like do nothing, just, just like own it and like don’t mess with it, let it ride. And that’s really what they did.

Moish Peltz [00:20:02]:
They really just supported community events and getting them into museums and hosting brunches and just staying in their lane and not, not screwing with something that’s good. And so I think people are really appreciative that they really didn’t try to do too much because the whole point is it’s just this historical artist art project that people can collect and have fun with and not to be this corporate profit motivated thing. So thanks, Yuga Labs. Yeah, good job. I will say though, just to throw in a little bit more on this topic, right. It gets into the question of what does the. Like everyone says, like quote unquote, the IP.

Kyle Lawrence [00:20:47]:
Yeah.

Moish Peltz [00:20:48]:
Not just for this transaction, but in NFTs, everyone’s like, oh, the IP. And they don’t really think critically about what that means.

Kyle Lawrence [00:20:57]:
Right.

Moish Peltz [00:20:57]:
And so it is interesting to think about what the IP represents for crypto punks relative to the idea that I think a lot of the value is, is owning the nft.

Kyle Lawrence [00:21:11]:
Sure.

Moish Peltz [00:21:11]:
Not the IP.

Kyle Lawrence [00:21:13]:
Right. Well, it’s, it’s also you’re talking about one of the preeminent collections. Like nobody says that about deadfellaz, you know what I mean?

Moish Peltz [00:21:23]:
Right. But I mean I think even just comparing cryptopunks to Bored Apes, Bored Apes has this whole MBA made by Apes program that’s purposely incentivizing people to create businesses around their ape. And that’s completely absent from the crypto thunks. And it’s really about the NFT as a piece of art. And so if the IP is not meant to be commercialized, I mean you got the cryptopunks brand as a trademark and you have the copyright of the individual punks, whatever that is worth, may not be worth anything if no one’s really commercializing. It’s just art. And okay, well like what is the value aside from that? If it’s really just meant to increase the halo of the value of the individual works of art and to grow the concept of art on blockchain, then like what remaining value does the IP have in that context?

Kyle Lawrence [00:22:26]:
Yeah, it’s true, man.

Moish Peltz [00:22:28]:
I mean, I think that’s why you saw, or at least one of the reasons, I can speculate. The other reason, one of the reasons why you saw that the transaction dollar amount as reported and several outlets was relatively low is like it’s just, there’s, it’s not being sold to generate an ROI on that investment. It’s being sold for preserving art for art sake.

Kyle Lawrence [00:22:52]:
And hats off to Yuga Labs for realizing that and selling it at that price, then I mean like, they need the money.

Moish Peltz [00:22:58]:
Yeah, well, not just selling for that price, selling it to someone who’s going.

Kyle Lawrence [00:23:01]:
To be the right thing.

Moish Peltz [00:23:02]:
I’m sure if they created a competitive auction process, they could have realized a larger sale price. But I think, I think specifically picking a Buyer that was buying it for the. Ostensibly for the right reasons, you know, at, at a financial discount, I think is, is the decision that they made. So hats off to them.

Kyle Lawrence [00:23:24]:
Moish, you’re the best.

Moish Peltz [00:23:27]:
No, you, Kyle.

Kyle Lawrence [00:23:28]:
Well, Moish, it’s time for the ever elusive lightning round. And here we are. You ready to kick it off?

Moish Peltz [00:23:35]:
Never ready. Always.

Kyle Lawrence [00:23:38]:
I think that’s. Are we going to leave that in?

Moish Peltz [00:23:40]:
I don’t even know what I’m saying.

Kyle Lawrence [00:23:42]:
Don’t cut that out. Well, I’m going to start us off, Moish. Alex Mashinsky, the founder and former CEO of Celsius Network, has been sentenced to 12 years in federal prison for orchestrating a massive fraud that led to the platform’s collapse in 2022. Mashinsky misled customers about the safety of their funds, engaged in risky investments and, and manipulated the price of Celsius’s native token, resulting in billions in losses for investors. Despite his guilty plea and expressions of remorse, the court emphasized the severity of his actions and the profound impact on his victims, many of whom lost their life savings. Moish, what do you think about the sentence? Fair. Unfair.

Moish Peltz [00:24:22]:
Oh, man. What do I think about the sentence? I, I like, not long enough, probably fair, but, but too short, I think, I think is my gut reaction seems, you know, it’s such a staggering amount of loss and it’s such a. I just feel so terribly for so many people that are involved in this and that are still involved now, you know, four years later almost in the, the bankruptcy proceedings. You know, it’s, it’s just, you hear heartbreaking stories. This guy destroyed so much, you know, not just value, but people’s lives.

Kyle Lawrence [00:25:01]:
Yeah.

Moish Peltz [00:25:02]:
And the judge wasn’t buying the remorse. And even with that sentence, 12 years. So look at 12 years is not nothing. Just like, you know, SBF got what, 20 and change?

Kyle Lawrence [00:25:15]:
Something like that. But 12 years, I mean, that’s more than, you know, Michael Milken got. It’s more than Elizabeth Holmes. It’s more than. Well, we’re, we’re firing on all cylinders tonight, but it seems more than, it’s more than typical for, for people who do these kind of things.

Moish Peltz [00:25:34]:
I think that’s right. I think when it comes to white collar financial crimes, 12 years is like a pretty.

Kyle Lawrence [00:25:39]:
Yeah.

Moish Peltz [00:25:41]:
Stiff sentence.

Kyle Lawrence [00:25:41]:
All right, so alligator tears and all off to jail with you.

Moish Peltz [00:25:44]:
Yeah, I mean, that’s one of the things about, about crypto financial crime is if you’re going to do crypto financial crime and you’re denominating the harm you’ve committed in crypto, and all of a sudden, crypto’s worth a lot of money. The harm looks really bad. Guidelines all of a sudden shoots up. Well, so something to think about for all the potential, you know, criminal fraudsters out there, like, don’t do financial crime in crypto, because, whoops, now it’s a billion dollars of financial value that you’ve done harm.

Kyle Lawrence [00:26:13]:
It was good for the goose kind of thing, I guess.

Moish Peltz [00:26:17]:
All right, our next lightning topic is none other than pump fun. A recent report by Solidus Labs revealed that nearly 99% of memecoins launched on Solana’s pump fund platform are either pump and dump schemes or rug pulls. While individual scams often involve small amounts, the sheer volume, over 7 million tokens, that. That seems like a small number relative to what I would have imagined pose significant financial reputational risks to the crypto ecosystem as a whole. And in particular, the platform’s bonding curve pricing model, which benefits early buyers potentially at the expense of later ones, may exacerbate the issue, leading to a high or failure rate among tokens. So, Kyle, does 99% sound right to you in terms of the percentage that is pump and dump schemes or rug pulls?

Kyle Lawrence [00:27:07]:
It actually does. As somebody who spends a lot of time in the trenches, it really does. And you see the depths to which people go. I mean, people wash, trade these tokens to make it look like there’s a lot of activity on them. And you go and put in half a soul and it’s instantly gone. And that’s the other thing, is these scammers are going after quantity, not quality. I mean, they’re rugging 7, $800 per token. It’s ridiculous.

Kyle Lawrence [00:27:32]:
It’s a volume game, and it just sort of exacerbates the idea that people, you need to be vigilant out there. You need to be smart about what you’re doing. Don’t just, you know, ape right into things. Understand what you’re doing. Look with your own two eyes at exactly what’s happening. If something seems too good to be true, it probably is.

Moish Peltz [00:27:52]:
You know, I did. I did read another study. I don’t know if it was a study, an article about the idea that so much of what’s going on in the memecoin space is just PvP. Like player versus player.

Kyle Lawrence [00:28:04]:
Yeah.

Moish Peltz [00:28:04]:
So, like, we’re just fighting each other, Kyle, for our own money. And so I think the statistics showed that it’s kind of like poker or like some other house game where there’s. The house is taking away, like, you know, a few percent vig. But at the end of the day, like, on average people are making, you know, 48% of their, you know, like they’re winning 48% of the time or something. Right, right. But I think the 99%, my, the visualization I had when you were saying that is imagine a wall of just like power outlets, 100 power outlets on the wall and 99 of them, you just have a fork, you put them in, you shock me. And like there’s one of them where you make a million dollars. It’s like that’s, that’s the game we’re playing here.

Kyle Lawrence [00:28:46]:
Yeah.

Moish Peltz [00:28:46]:
And so people are just like shoving their money into random like set pockets and they’re losing it. Like, whoops. Like, so part of it has to be caveat emptor. But like, I think the other part of it is like there are just people scamming people. So like.

Kyle Lawrence [00:28:59]:
Right. Well, you know, it’s funny, earlier in the episode I was saying, you know, the SEC needs to protect these people. But then on this other side, it’ don’t be stupid. Like if you, if like it’s obviously a scam, then it’s a scam.

Moish Peltz [00:29:10]:
But if 99% of 7 million tokens. And again, the number seems small relative to my expectations are, are scams and rug pulls. Like, how, how is any regulator, even an AI assisted, like, what possible regulator could go after 6.990 million, like rug pulls? You just, you can’t. Right.

Kyle Lawrence [00:29:36]:
Well, I think we have a topic coming up that might shed some light on this. But we’ll see.

Moish Peltz [00:29:40]:
Okay, we’ll see.

Kyle Lawrence [00:29:43]:
Well, next up, strategy, formerly known as micro strategy. Another one of these great rebrands is facing a class action lawsuit alleging that the company misled investors about the risks associated with. With its aggressive bitcoin investment strategy. The lawsuit highlights a reported 5.9 billion unrealized loss in Q1 of 2025, which led to an 8.67% drop in the company’s stock price as of April 7. This legal action raises concerns about the broader implications for corporate bitcoin treasuries, which is something that is very popular right now, as other companies adopting similar strategies may now face increased regulatory scrutiny and potential legal challenges. Moish. Does this suit have any legs whatsoever?

Moish Peltz [00:30:26]:
I. I don’t know. I don’t know enough about this. I do know that as of recording today, June 10, 2025, every purchase MicroStrategy, sorry, every purchase strategy has ever made, a bitcoin is in the green. So yeah, it’s it’s, it’s this weird thing of, well, if you’re buying strategy knowing that they hold bitcoin.

Kyle Lawrence [00:30:51]:
Yes.

Moish Peltz [00:30:53]:
It seems weird to me that you would raise concerns about the bitcoin that strategy owns being volatile. That’s the reason the company exists.

Kyle Lawrence [00:31:03]:
Correct.

Moish Peltz [00:31:04]:
Now, if this was some old guy that bought MicroStrategy, I think I can use it in this context 10 years ago. And I was just sitting there and thought they were doing really well and like, wow, why are you a bitcoin treasury company now? I can’t believe it. In that case seems like a little bit more interesting to me. But I don’t think that’s what we have here. But no, maybe we do.

Kyle Lawrence [00:31:24]:
You hit the nail on the head. They advertise themselves as a leveraged on bitcoin company. That is their strategy. These are the, this is the same thing as the dipshits who move next to MacArthur Airport and then sue the airport for noise violations. That’s. You nailed it. That’s what this is. To hell with this.

Kyle Lawrence [00:31:41]:
I say boo this man. Boo these class action people and boo the lawyers who took this on.

Moish Peltz [00:31:46]:
Yeah. But of course it’s going to be like multi year surviving motions, dismiss like discovery, like crap.

Kyle Lawrence [00:31:54]:
I tell you.

Moish Peltz [00:31:56]:
Yeah.

Kyle Lawrence [00:31:57]:
World Liberty Financial, which the Trump family has a major stake in, sent a cease and desist letter to Fight, Fight Fight, the company responsible for the Trump Memecoin back in January, which was run by the president’s longtime friend and promoter, Bill Zanker. This infighting started after Fight, Fight, Fight announced last week that it is developing the Trump Wallet, which will allegedly let users trade and hold the Trump Coin and other digital assets. The company is working with the marketplace Magic Eden, which also received a cease and desist letter. So, Moish, I think there’s a lot of things to talk about here with what’s going on with Trump and cryptocurrency in general. But what do you think about this specific thing right here?

Moish Peltz [00:32:37]:
Well, I think the IP issues embedded in this are amazing because you have to think, right, that Trump licensed. President Trump licensed his name to Fight, Fight Fight to issue the Memecoin and presumably for related, you know, ancillary crypto business, but who knows, right? There’s, there’s a license agreement. It provides Fight, Fight, Fight the right to do certain things. What that says, what’s in that license agreement, I don’t know. And then they go off and they launch the memecoin, make a lot of money, presumably. Trump makes a lot of money. And I Think everyone’s happy, right? And now they say, well, we’re going to launch a Trump Wallet using that same license, presumably. And then World Liberty says, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold up.

Moish Peltz [00:33:28]:
We’re part of the Trump family and we want to launch a Trump Wallet. You can’t do that. So this is like a hilarious setup for like a really good trademark law school exam fact pattern. Like, this is fantastic. And there’s all sorts of weird issues about family names and whether family memes can be trademarked and to what extent, especially when, you know, there’s multiple family members using the family names different ways and then they’re both launching a competing product and you can’t have two competing wallets both branded the Trump Wallet. I mean, I guess you could. Seems like a huge trademark issue to me, so. I think it’s hilarious.

Moish Peltz [00:34:05]:
I love embedded trademark issues in crypto, and this is one that is not just embedded with trademark crypto issues, but also, like the political ones and the, you know, the news covering it and now, like Magic Eden involved. I think it’s fantastic.

Kyle Lawrence [00:34:22]:
Yeah, it’s interesting. And this does come right on the heels of a lot of people raising concerns over Trump’s dinner at Mar a Lago for the top Trump coin holders and, and the response from the administration, which I found amusing in some ways, which is, well, he wasn’t holding the dinner in his presidential capacity. He was holding it as just, as just Donald Trump. To which I’m like, look, without getting political, I don’t think all those people are there because they’re best friends with him. Like, why do you think they hold the coin?

Moish Peltz [00:34:53]:
They’re there for their shared affinity in the Trump memecoin, Kyle. Why else would they be there?

Kyle Lawrence [00:34:58]:
I guess so he shows me what I know. It’ll be funny. It’d be interesting to see how this one shakes out. I love the finger pointing that goes on and I love that, you know, and listen, they’re not wrong to say that, hey, don’t release something with our name on it if we haven’t endorsed it. I mean, putting, you know, putting aside all the jokes. They’re not wrong.

Moish Peltz [00:35:18]:
I, I believe they’ve, they’ve already kind of shaken hands and decided to work it out amongst themselves. So we’ll see if anything else comes out of this. But I imagine the optimal outcome for both parties here is to work it out amongst themselves and find an amicable business way forward versus full blown IP litigation over the issue.

Kyle Lawrence [00:35:45]:
Litigation is never the answer. The process is the punishment.

Moish Peltz [00:35:48]:
Well, it is unfortunately, too often the answer, it’s not always the best answer, but. All right, next lightning topic is the SEC roundtable titled DeFi and the American Spirit happened Yesterday, which was intended to explore regulation and innovation in DeFi. And the recording is January, June 10th. It took place June 9th. In that, I was, I thought it was great. There were some really excellent hosts, including Chair Atkins kicked it off. Commissioner Hester Peirce highlighted a lot of the embodiment of American principles in individual empowerment innovation. Commissioner Uyeda, I thought, had a really nice speech discussing the Lewis and Clark expedition and how they were sent off to explore the newly acquired Louisiana Purchase and analogizing that to the American spirit inherent in DeFi.

Moish Peltz [00:36:54]:
And I think all this tying into what should be the American innovation, supporting the entrepreneurs in the crypto industry. And so I think just the concept of this panel and that framing, I thought was really cool. And then the panelists on there included some really great people, including prior guests of the show, Gabe Shapiro, Rebecca Redig, Michael Moser, Eric Voorhees and others. Some really excellent conversation. So, Kyle, I mean, I think we asked this question of one of our other guests earlier today, but what do you think is going to be the product? You have all these experts, speakers going in, you’ve all these, you know, commissioners, like federal government employees, talking about the, the innovation that should arise out of crypto. What do you think of anything is kind of going to come out of these roundtables? This was the fifth of five. Yeah, I think the final one. What next?

Kyle Lawrence [00:37:55]:
I think it’d be funny if they called this the Gensler roundtable, because this is actually the physical embodiment of what he was encouraging people to do during his reign of terror, which was come in and talk to us and we’ll help you figure it out. This is that. This is exactly that. And one of the things I love about this is it’s not just people in Congress and it’s not just, you know, fiscal hawks or whatever you want to call it. You have people from Columbia Business School, you have people who have launched projects, Venice, AI, Wharton School of Business, MetaLeX. I mean, this is a truly diverse group of people within the industry who have different backgrounds and different ideas and different ways of achieving the goal that we all have. And from my perspective, you know, you want to talk about decentralization, what does that really mean? This is it. We’ll see what happens in the coming years.

Kyle Lawrence [00:38:43]:
Obviously, we have a, you know, election cycles to abide by and, and the ever shifting winds of political discourse and everything that goes with that. But this is exactly what the SEC should have been doing from day one. And I’m glad to see them doing it. And you know, I look forward to seeing, you know, to watching the rest of this panel discussion and to seeing more of what comes out of this. I mean, I love this. Not to be, not to be, you know, a shill for it, but I think this is fantastic.

Moish Peltz [00:39:10]:
Yeah, I agree. I think the only other thing that you didn’t mention is, you know, whether this will lead to, you know, any, any rulemaking. And then I think they would. They’re going to kind of reference back to these panels and talk about, you know, the different issues that are debated in this forum as to how they decide. So hopefully, I mean, I think that’s, that’s the point, right, is to have real open, not, not just presentations and, but like real debate and people arguing, you know, and Gabe Shapiro and Eric Voorhees and have different points of view on some issues. And I think they both have really interesting points of view. But I think that should hopefully that, that, that discussion taking place in a SEC sanctioned event I think is really cool and will hopefully inform, you know, the rule making process. And so the rule making process is made, if only like 1% better because of that.

Moish Peltz [00:40:00]:
Like it should have been worth it, right?

Kyle Lawrence [00:40:03]:
Yeah, we’ll see what comes out of it. I like it though. It’s really good stuff, I think. Last up on the lightning round, A16Z has declared the end of the crypto foundation era and is calling for a company led future in the industry. Initially, nonprofit foundations were established to promote decentralization and serve as neutral stewards for blockchain networks. However, over time, these foundations have become legal workarounds to avoid securities regulations, often leading to inefficiencies and centralized control. The author notes that foundations now create more friction than decentralization and suggests that the industry should move beyond these structures to achieve better alignment, accountability and scalability. You know, Moish, we’ve talked a lot about the work that Miles Jennings and A16, A16Z has done and they’ve really been thought leaders in the space and at the forefront of a lot of how these projects are structured and the different ideas that they have.

Kyle Lawrence [00:40:56]:
What do you think about this kind of shift? Has the writing been on the wall here? What? I think it kind of has. But you know, where do you think we go from here and do you think they’re right?

Moish Peltz [00:41:06]:
Yeah, I mean, this is a lot of what we’ve talked about since inauguration is about the idea that all these offshore foundations are attempted work. Not all of them, some of them are set up for really genuine purposes, but, but many of them are set up to, to avoid regulation. And it just seems so inefficient of, well, why can’t we just build this here? Why can’t we do it right in the United States? If it’s properly decentralized and you don’t have an intermediary and you don’t have custody over assets, then why can’t we have a pathway to doing that here? And why can’t we have like, you know, well run organizations instead of having a Delaware C corp? Why can’t we have a, a decentralized foundation that’s based in Delaware or Wyoming or some other state and have it headquartered here and have taxes and employees and so forth, all. All taking place here? So I think as you’re starting to see, you know, Miles Jennings, who wrote the article, is of course at the forefront of a lot of the thought leadership here. I think as you’re seeing this happening and I think as against comparing against the real inefficiencies that come with running a DAO and an offshore foundation and you’re seeing other organizations like Yuga Labs saying hey, maybe we should buy back the DAO and re centralize it. And then other DAOs are thinking about onshoring and it’s like, well, yeah, because the whole offshore thing was stupid because you’re trying to solve for something which you shouldn’t have needed to solve for. And we’re only doing because you couldn’t it here for stupid political reasons. And so it makes a ton of sense that we would circle the wagons here and find just, all right, what are we actually trying to solve for? How do we actually, from first principles, create a US headquartered decentralized crypto native organization? And let’s do that.

Moish Peltz [00:43:03]:
Let’s not run off and do something else.

Kyle Lawrence [00:43:06]:
Yeah, yeah, it’s good stuff. And we always, you know, celebrate what Miles Jennings puts out. And I agree with him about, you know, the structural separation between different types of entities leading to operational inefficiencies. It’s something we’ve talked about, it’s something we’ve advised our clients on. So be interesting to see. And I think you’re right. You know, Delaware, I feel like they’d be at the forefront for a lot of this stuff. I know Wyoming has picked up that mantle, but Delaware just given its history and its impact on corporate law in the United States, it seems like just low hanging fruit for them to pick up this baton and develop the type of structure that makes sense for the industry because they can govern it correctly.

Kyle Lawrence [00:43:43]:
I don’t know.

Moish Peltz [00:43:45]:
I would hope that Delaware is watching this. And much like we’ve been maligning the federal government for being slow, the US Federal government being slow at adopting crypto regulation with the caveat that, well, we can kind of watch all the other countries do stupid stuff and then take our time and kind of have to be forced to do it the right way at the last second. I would hope that Delaware would see all this happening and see Wyoming doing all these things in New Hampshire, doing in Vermont and like others are states like trying things and then Delaware just saying, all right, all right, let’s do this the right way. And like then like actually just have a decentralized like entity form come up. So maybe we’ll see like the late mover advantage actually pop up here and say, yeah, Wyoming’s tried some stuff, not all of it’s worked. You know, Unas, Dunas, co ops, whatever other stuff. Let’s, let’s make a real so like call out here if you’re Secretary of State of Delaware. One, you can come on Block and Order.

Moish Peltz [00:44:49]:
Love to talk about this, but two, we’d love to hear what you’re thinking about decentralized organizations, blockchain based organizations, whether there’s a, a spot for them in Delaware.

Kyle Lawrence [00:44:59]:
I mean, we could just do a recorded episode right outside the Secretary of State office. I don’t think there’s anything stopping us. I think it’s actually legal.

Moish Peltz [00:45:07]:
Sounds like harassment, Kyle.

Kyle Lawrence [00:45:09]:
Harassing them. You’re just telling the building that they need to do it. Can’t arrest a building.

Moish Peltz [00:45:16]:
Live stream from the Secretary of State. That’ll be riveting.

Kyle Lawrence [00:45:20]:
I think so.

Moish Peltz [00:45:23]:
You do actually think so? I do. That’s wonderful.

Kyle Lawrence [00:45:27]:
Well, that wraps it up for this banner edition of Block and Order. Please don’t forget to like and subscribe to our channel. And don’t forget to subscribe. Follow us on all our socials. The links are down below in the show notes. Remember, Block and Order is meant for informational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing we say or do is meant to be construed as legal advice. Please hire your own attorney if you’re going to take the plunge.

Kyle Lawrence [00:45:47]:
Neither the discussion of nor the fact that Moish and I may own any of the assets we discuss in this episode is meant to serve as an endorsement of such assets. As always, a very special thank you to producer Shaun without him the show would not be possible. So on behalf of Moish Pelts, I am Kyle Lawrence. Thanks, everybody.

Moish Peltz [00:46:04]:
See you next time.

Please note that this show is meant for informational and entertainment purposes only. This is not legal advice. Please hire your own attorney. The hosts or guests appearing on Block and Order may hold cryptocurrency, NFTs, or other digital assets from companies mentioned during our programming. This possession of digital assets does not constitute a professional endorsement, legal advice, or financial advice. Listeners are encouraged to consult with their own legal and financial advisors for personalized guidance in the blockchain and cryptocurrency space.